Corbyn is lovely, why the negativity?

[Wettingthetopbunkbed]

Really, why?
Just because he's a bit different in his presentation. He in principled and compassionate, I for one wish he would become the PM.

Acknowledgement that women have been wrongly, and harmfully, oppressed, and that this should immediately be addressed is built into the socialist movement:

www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

It's like saying all those who vote labour are good and caring people and those who vote Tory are selfish and interested in only their own needs

Likewise, self interest is the foundation of free market philosophy.

I agree that to say you cannot criticise a black person because it must automatically be because she is black, is racism in itself. It says that they can't have an opinion that may be unpopular or have to defend it, because the colour of their skin is what will always matter more than their opinion. People listen to what she says and does and see her as a hypocrite. To treat her differently from someone else who sent her kids to private school when she was supposed to be against it, lies, is a poor public speaker and goes to the pub during the most important vote in the recent history of our country is racism.

Scaryclown Before 2015 the major parties in Scotland were Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP. The Tories are an irrelevance in voting terms in Scotland. They were fed up of the Labour party and the Lib Dems so voted for the SNP. In the process, they have made it almost impossible for Labour to win in the Westminister Parliament. If they gain any seats in Scotland, it will be because of Kezia Dugdale, not Jeremy Corbyn. If anything, he is hampering her campaign.

what do we think about Tony Blair joining the lib dems? Bloody good idea - and why doesn't any labour MP that is not a supporter of the current leadership do the same whilst we're at it?

That's bad news for the Libdems

And I think TB on the whole was a good PM but he needs to step away though if he gives the odd speech as he did the other week to raise awareness of issues it might help but I think ultimately it will cause more harm

One already has. I think it is a good idea for those who want to leave the Labour Party do do that. Then Corbyn and the constituency parties can put up who they want. The only way to know whether a hard left Labour Party is electable is to take away all the excuses, have a united completely leftist party and see if that is what the people want. Or, if as most people on this thread and I believe in the country want is an effective centre left opposition who will challenge the Tories for power.

He could be a poison chalice though due to Iraq. It's a great shame because TB did do lots of bloody good things.

Listening to Corbyn now,and to be fair he's the best he's been, but it's an invited audience of course and get him in front of any good interviewer and it will show the weakness in his character and leadership.

I agree that to say you cannot criticise a black person because it must automatically be because she is black, is racism in itself.

I am wondering, if in an office situation....if the boss turns to the woman worker and asks her to fetch some tea - as the usual person who does this is out sick....if it would be anti-feminist to at least raise the question.

The answer is that it wouldn't be.

Corbyn is at his best giving a tub thumping rally address.

Tony Blair should speech-write for the soft left/lib dem politicians - I agree, the problem is that he's so hated over Iraq, people do not listen to his very sensible views on domestic policy anymore or recollect the minimum wage, devolution or huge rises in NHS and education funding under his watch.

agree river surely it's obvious the soft left can't get back control any other way? They all resigned en masse from the shadow cabinet and he's like whack a mole, he's still going. The exit signs have been flashing for some time now. They can always re-join at a later date.

Party politics has to be abandoned for a progressive alliance. I'd rather Corbyn's mop wasn't in it but I suppose as a fringe group we could see...

People also see what happens locally too.
In my own locality labour did what Scary suggested - build facilities (a swimming pool) in a more favoured deprived area. And closing one that actually had been built via public subscription in my area, with no public transport to the new one. It seemed the politics of envy.

And to hear the constant vitriol spewed at Diane Abbot because she might rolls her eyes or speaks authoritatively....or spins stuff, as every single politician has done....it makes me wonder - in that racism, classicism and sexism are still very much present - if there isn't more too it. I am raising the question.

makeourfuture I would say both examples are patronising and dismissive of that person as an individual, so are therefore the same things. Assuming a woman in the office should be making the tea is sexist.

I am Indian. No one knows this because I'm on a computer. if I had an avalanche of people telling me I was talking a load of nonsense, but the minute I said i was Asian, loads of people suddenly agreed with me or patronised me because they don't want to be accused of racism, I then what would be the point of me having an opinion? I might change my opinion because I have been treated like an adult and engaged with properly. I won't if any opposition to my opinion is automatically seen as racism. It's like when I want my 6 year old to stop talking, I sometimes just agree with him!

Ok so you say i am racist for disliking Diane Abbot's views.

Where does that get us? A struggle session cultural Revolution style?

Some people are just not likeable so the character flaws are noticed are highlighted more along with the mistakes they have made along the way

Hillary Clinton is a very good example. We all know she was by far the better choice of President but she didn't connect with the public she never had done people simply didn't like it trust her and that impacted how many didn't bother voting for her

Robin Cook is another that failed to connect and Gordon Brown

Like her

Not like it

Of course I am baffled as to why so many voted Trump but is she had connected more with the public she would have easily won

What I find confusing on MN is all the people who rant about Trump, Le Pen and Farage being racists/bigots etc but put Corbyn on a pedestal. Corbyn is no different from any of these people he just dislikes Jews rather than Muslims. Racism is racism and just because Corbyn is a "socialist" doesn't make him a saint (don't forget the Nazis called themselves National Socialists too!).

Why has this veered into a discussion about Down Abbott? I genuinely don't have any strong feelings about her either way, I don't think make is wrong to suggest there may be some unconscious bias at work though.

Didn't know that TB had joined the Lib Dems, that's interesting - can I ask what the source is? Not being snotty, genuinely interested.

Bloody autocorrect. Diane, obviously, not Down.

Ok so you say i am racist for disliking Diane Abbot's views.

I am raising the possibility, yes. I have no way of knowing if you are racist or not.

Corbyn is no different from any of these people he just dislikes Jews rather than Muslims.

Corbyn dislikes Israel's Palestinian stance.

Makeourfuture:

I'd i once liked her but now don't any racism is probably irrelevant.

I feel that by relentlessly focussing on identity politics self styled progressives lose the opportunity to build consensus within society.

As an aside, I winced as Dawn Butler went on and on about women journalists this am. I was with my young son. I am probably a mysoginist too according to your rulebook.

But Corbyn can't seem to separate the issue of Israel and anti semitism

As highlighted in his own speech at the farce of the press conference on the anti semitism report

Should read If not I'd!