Corbyn is lovely, why the negativity?

[Wettingthetopbunkbed]

Really, why?
Just because he's a bit different in his presentation. He in principled and compassionate, I for one wish he would become the PM.

Markourfuture, no.

I personally intensely dislike Diane Abbott for her lack of principles (sending her own son to Private School but slagging off others for doing similar)

I've seen her give several car crash live interviews where she claims the 'media' mis-report what she said (er.....we all saw it live?)

She likes to stir up racial tension. She was on Question Time after a teenage immigrant was stabbed in London. She blamed it on Brexit and White hate crime/Britain First. Then found out that those particular youths who attacked the man were black.

She's cowardly - had a 'migraine' (although she was in the pub) when the vote for triggering Article 50 was taken.

Again and again everything that comes out of her mouth is a diatribe of misinformation.

Hmmmmmm well I'm white and I dislike Abbott, and I really don't think it's racist/sexist of me to do so.

For starters there are plenty of other well-known black women who state their case who I do like and admire, Bonnie Greer, Michelle Obama, Beyonce, I bloody love Maggie Aderin-Pocock and think what she is doing is great (relevant to my profession so especially her).

I find Abbot's persona and delivery style irritating but I presume she can't help that. More to the point I'm annoyed by her sucking up to Corbyn and being his spokesperson and not taking exception to his racism and sexism. She's behaved hypocritically and she is definitely harming labour's profile at the moment because she doesn't come across as on top of things or politically intelligent, but as a sycophantic underdog to an egomaniac.

I think it's quite dangerous, and in fact racist in a different way, to suggest we can't really have any problem with any black woman because if we do it's really just racism. That would mean they are essentially on a pedestal and not subject to the expectations we'd have of a "normal" (i.e. white) person.

And anyway she doesn't "firmly state her case" does she. She runs around trying to bleatingly defend Corbyn's idiocies and chops and changes her "case" on what suits her and her ambition personally.

But the guardian hasn't got a large number of readers in comparison with the right wing press and their influence is on left wing voters and a few floating voters

They also on balance have had prominent journalists who have supported Corbyn and one who has been instrumental in Corbyn becoming and staying leader of the Labour Party (Owen Jones)

Labour will win, when enough people want the Conservatives out.
We never vote in a government, we always vote the current government out.
What has limited Labour is the SNP.
When people in Scotland want the Conservatives out, they will vote Labour.
That's how first past the post works.

They also on balance have had prominent journalists who have supported Corbyn and one who has been instrumental in Corbyn becoming and staying leader of the Labour Party (Owen Jones) I thought he'd ditched Corbyn.

I don't doubt at all that Diane Abbott has come across racism. That doesn't take away her condescending and hypocritical ways. She has made a number of controversial statements she knows what she was doing she has been involved in politics for long enough to know what will get a reaction

Much like Emily Thornberry though she is less controversial

Both Zoe Williams and Owen Jones have now

the damage has already been done

But the guardian hasn't got a large number of readers in comparison with the right wing press and their influence is on left wing voters and a few floating voters

The guardian is free via the app, everyone reads it these days for that reason alone I thought. I don't pay for it though

I think it's quite dangerous, and in fact racist in a different way, to suggest we can't really have any problem with any black woman because if we do it's really just racism. That would mean they are essentially on a pedestal and not subject to the expectations we'd have of a "normal" (i.e. white) person.

But what if it is actual bigotry? With this line of thought....how would it every be questioned?

When people in Scotland want the Conservatives out, they will vote Labour. That's not how it works in Scotland. People were so sickened by Labour they completely abandoned them.

But what if it is actual bigotry? With this line of thought....how would it every be questioned?

Well as shown below, if someone dislikes or takes exception to someone else and they have good reasons relevant to the situation, and can explain them, then it's not bigotry is it? Particularly if they are not bigoted and racist in general!

Bigotry is a horrible thing that I'm on guard against as far as I can be. But I defend my right to not like someone, whatever their colour or gender.

I'm a labour voter, somewhat disappointed by Corbyn in various ways, however he is subjected to unbearable scrutiny.
The Conservatives are way more racist and way more misogynistic than the Labour, always have been.
Fgs they are more or less UKIP now!

Also Diane Abbott maybe irritating - I think she's fine btw - but put them against the likes of May, Gideon, fucking Tebbit! (is he still alive even?) then I wonder what it is I'm actually missing.

Scotland is not following your script scaryclown.

Conservative vote is likely to go up as an anti SNP protest vote, go figure!

Well as shown below, if someone dislikes or takes exception to someone else and they have good reasons relevant to the situation, and can explain them, then it's not bigotry is it?

Well there have been studies and things. "Othering" for instance. That we, due to socialisation, etc, have internalised biases.

A good parallel may be sexism. Men may not feel they are sexist, but exhibit sexist/misogynistic behaviours as they have been conditioned from birth. Patriarchy is built into the structure of the system.

The Conservatives are way more racist and way more misogynistic than the Labour, always have been.

I'm not sure that's true at least with misogyny. IMO misogyny and racism run very deep, though more subconscious/under the surface, in many of the labour/lefty men I have known. It's notable that the Conservatives have had two female leaders and Labour none.

My theory is this is because Conservatism is traditionally more preoccupied with class and money, among upper class people / aristocracy, women have always been able to have power, despite it appearing to against those old values - look at all the female monarchs. It doesn't go against a conservative's deep gut values to see a woman in power, the way it does a for traditional labour bloke. Of course there's still misogyny throughout all political parties and throughout society - but I wouldn't automatically assume that just because Labour is "left", it's less sexist.

The Tories may well have more policies that are harmful to women, but they are on their second female leader and their last leadership election was between two female candidates on the last round. The Labour party has never had a female leader except for brief periods as a caretaker. This is not for want of female candidates. There is deeply entrenched misogyny on the Left as well as on the Right.

*Well there have been studies and things. "Othering" for instance. That we, due to socialisation, etc, have internalised biases.

A good parallel may be sexism. Men may not feel they are sexist, but exhibit sexist/misogynistic behaviours as they have been conditioned from birth. Patriarchy is built into the structure of the system.*

Yup, I do know about all this! BUT if you take the line that any criticism of a black person is probably underlying racism, then that means a black person is beyond criticism, which is also racist (because it's saying they're special snowflakes who aren't subject to the expectations white people are).

So what is needed is to be as self-aware as possible and be aware that you might be exhibiting deep-held prejudices, and to examine your reasons, but still to be able to treat people equally and have equal expectations of whoever is doing a job, as far as possible.

I think Stuart said it best when it comes to the Tory Party - sorry!

He's really not a very nice person. Selfish and obstinate

The Conservatives are way more racist and way more misogynistic than the Labour, always have been.

I think this misunderstanding is one of the issues labour has.

The perception that Tories are 'racist' and near to UKIP (despite campaigning strongly for remain). Like it or not many voters are racist so they don't see this as negative . As it goes I don't think it's even true but pedaling this type of stuff will benefit the conservatives not labour.

I also don't think that a party that has never had a female leader can be seen as leading the way in tackling misogyny.

and what do we think of Tony Blair joining the lib dems for the purpose of this GE?

I agree re: labour not having a woman leader = sexist

BUT if you take the line that any criticism of a black person is probably underlying racism, then that means a black person is beyond criticism

I am not sure this follows.

If for instance you look around the company and see no black people, and you know the community is diverse, then you may consider that your hiring processes/recruitment contains some sort of filter bias. That would not mean that the act of questioning the lack of diversity is in itself racist.

Gretchen I will vote Labour, but I expect far better from Labour than the Conservatives. I expect the Conservatives to be racist and misogynistic.

I think that over simplifies politics to view the left as being for the good of everyone and leading the way for equality

It's like saying all those who vote labour are good and caring people and those who vote Tory are selfish and interested in only their own needs