to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

[Morphene]

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

Even scientists have to deal with uncertainty in life. Only thing that is certain is that we all die. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

I've discovered over the years that a feW various colleagues were JW and/or very Christian (as in dedicate a lot of their free time to church stuff). In a workplace where colleagues are generally friends too.

It always surprising to me, and does make me look at them a bit differently tbh. But ultimately I don't think it's changed the nature of my friendships/working relationships with them. They have all been really nice people and never been preachy in the least.

I'm another one who is surprised at the idea of being surprised at being friends with someone who has different beliefs from you. I'm an atheist with friends, including close friends from many different faith groups. I'm a member of the Green Party with a mate in momentum and another that's a Tory councillor. I guess the difference is that I would talk politics with the political friends but I find it a bit pointless and reductive to argue about faith (no one's going to change anyone's mind!). But I think it's enriching and important to remember that the fact that you disagree with someone doesn't mean that you can't find common ground.

Olli, precisely . I smile at your aggression.

Anyway, look around. The evidence is all around you.

I don't believe in evolution as a lot of it make no sense and is no more grounded in facts than the creation version of events. There are many, many scientists who believe the same.

Jesus Christ what a diabolical thing to say...You have a heap of logical fallacies in just that one short paragraph-

"I don't believe in evolution as a lot of it make no sense"- argument from ignorance 'Evolution doesn't make sense to me so it can't be true'

The presupposition that there is actually a god.

The assumption that evolution is on an equal footing with
creationism (I suppose you think its 'just a theory')

and my personal favourite- "many, many scientists who believe the same" thats argument from authority. You think it has credence because some scientists believe it. That doesn't matter at all, if you deny the facts it doesn't matter if you are a scientist, a politician or a toilet cleaner- you are still choosing to deny the facts.

... but perhaps we are all stupid and irrational and it's really an inexplicable belief.

I just don't hold the belief that we are here by random chance. The exact alignment of the sun and moon in our solar system for our survival....Nature is far too intricate to be random as well.

I also don't really get what people are saying to their atheist friends that they have to censor themselves in front of their Christian friends! I mean, I do have a mate that I try (and fail) to not say "oh god" in front of, because I know she doesn't like it, but beyond that, I can't think that I behave differently at all.

Anyway, look around. The evidence is all around you

Ahh- argument from beauty, 'everything around me is too perfect and beautiful, it just has to be created '
Present evidence or stop making claims. and you may be smiling at my 'aggression' but I assure you I'm smiling twice as wide at your stupidity.

melissa I think it is just an uncomfortable awareness of my lack of ability to empathise with them.

I can bridge some gaps, think myself into their perspective, but others I just can't connect. Actually faith isn't really that big a step. As people have said on here, I couldn't connect with someone who doesn't agree with evolution, or who thought homosexuality was immoral, but plain faith is not really a stretch at all.

Ollie, my understanding of evolution comes from extensive study. Your understanding of the God or the Bible? I wonder.

Don't assume I reached my conclusion about evolution based on hearsay or surface knowledge.

Oh and rest assured, I've met many, many people with your approach and attitude. Don't sweat. I have no desire to convince you of my belief or to prove to you that I have at least half brain cell.

y'see to me thats like saying you support Black Lives Matter whilst being a paid up member of the EDL
Most Christian denominations/churches are funamentally at odds with what you've listed there as your values IMO

A lot of Christian churches are, but not all. The church I attend has people with a range of beliefs and from a range of backgrounds, but in general the congregation are quite progressive, the pastor is very openly pro-LGBT & women's rights, and one of the lay preachers is a gay woman who has DC with her female partner.

There are websites like www.notalllikethat.org and www.christiansontheleft.org.uk/ examples of progressive/leftie Christian groups - I'm not saying I agree with everything on those websites.

I say I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus, the Bible & the things summed up in the Apostles' Creed That doesn't mean I agree with every Christian or "Christian" group out there.

I just don't hold the belief that we are here by random chance.

We aren't, read up on evolution and natural selection.

Nature is far too intricate to be random as well.
again- it isn't, see above. Why do you assume there has to be a creator because nature is intricate?

People who believe in God are very, very stupid . You should be happy you are not as stupid as us yet you sound so angry and bothered by it.

Ollie, do you really think most people don't know about evolution? It's rammed down our throats from day 1. Saying you don't buy it can lead to you be totally ostracised. I've studied it indepth and a lot of it makes no sense.

If I were not a Christian, I would be an agnostic certainly not an atheist.

This really isn't a 'does god exist thread, but I would like to say that people really misunderstand the 'complexity of nature'. For interest, here is a part of the mandelbrot set.

Its generated by an incredibly simply equation, f(z) = z^2 +c

Looks pretty complex though, doesn't it?

Ollie, my understanding of evolution comes from extensive study. Your understanding of the God or the Bible? I wonder.

Funnily enough, 'extensive study' although I don't need any knowledge of god or the bible to argue with you about this, as I predict (as you have demonstrated) that your arguments will be based on a presupposition that I reject.

Don't assume I reached my conclusion about evolution based on hearsay or surface knowledge.

I don't assume anything at all, you could be an evolutionary biologist for all I know. You made claims without evidence, I called you out on that. I have to because as long as there are people like you- there are people teaching little children that hell is a real place, that god is watching them and will punish them, and that creationism should be taught in science classes. You need to be beaten down so you are discouraged from sharing your delusion and infecting young minds before they make their minds up based on evidence.

Oh and rest assured, I've met many, many people with your approach and attitude. Don't sweat. I have no desire to convince you of my belief or to prove to you that I have at least half brain cell.

That makes absolutely no sense, because I am convinced on your belief, just not the second one.

do you really think most people don't know about evolution? It's rammed down our throats from day 1

Its quite clear that you are the one who is 'angry and bothered' ^

misstic if you have specific issues with the theory of evolution, then do air them. Whether they relate to the list of common misconceptions about evolution (eg. how can we have evolved from monkeys) or to unresolved areas of scientific endeavour (eg. prebiotic era stuff), I'm sure people will be interested to pitch in.

I've studied it indepth and a lot of it makes no sense.

Again, argument from ignorance. just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it is false.
I'm not a scientist and there are extremely complex things that I struggle to understand, that is my shortcoming- not the 'fault' of the theories and facts.

Birdsbeesandtrees I think it's an interesting question. I think "extreme" is a difficult term because it means different things to different people - something might present as more extreme if generally your circles are more homogenous, but not if your circles are more diverse. I tend to think that it matters more whether you can "disagree well" with the other person rather than the content of their opinions. But yes if a person held views that I found particularly abhorrent and ugly I would not want to be friends with them - off the top of my head - if they were a neo-nazi or thought wife-beating was ok for instance. I think that's different to "extreme" though, which is more about how different someone's worldview is to your own - I think there's scope for great and as someone said above enriching friendships with people whose views might seem extreme. It helps if you both don't easily take offence though. Sorry if that doesn't make sense - pretty tired!

Just in case Misstic scrolls over this very important bit, here it is again in in bold:

You made claims without evidence, I called you out on that. I have to because as long as there are people like you- there are people teaching little children that hell is a real place, that god is watching them and will punish them, and that creationism should be taught in science classes. You need to be beaten down so you are discouraged from sharing your delusion and infecting young minds before they make their minds up based on evidence.

I am religious but have no problems being friends with people with any or no religion. The only kind of person I can't be friends with is the intolerant or patronising - the kind of person who is convinced their faith - or lack of it - is better than mine, and I should welcome the opportunity to be converted/made 'rational'. I do find that very tiresome.

OP - you do sound a bit like one of those rather annoying atheists who are convinced they are intellectually superior because they don't believe in a deity. I find those just as irritating as Christians - sorry, but it is always Christians - who try to get me to go to their church and are prepared to hassle me in the street or at home to get me to do this, even when I've made it very clear I'm not interested.

I respect anyone who respects my right to privately believe what I believe and not try to change me because they are so sure they know better!

OP - as many have pointed out to you on this thread, there are many, many religious scientists. As a religious person, scientific knowledge and religious belief can co-exist quite happily, just in different parts of the brain, if that makes sense! I think if anything it helps, as it makes one a more critical and self-aware thinker, living with an awareness of that dichotomy every day. Given that science tends to subscribe to certain paradigms which are not unlike religions in dominating accepted scientific discourse - right up to the moment when they are disproved utterly and replaced! - I think having a religious background probably helps to make one a more critical scientist, which I assume most would agree is an important quality for scientists.

cvbn well I'm glad you got my character all cracked then. Apparently without reading any further in the thread too...bonus points for you.

I have absolutely NEVER attempted to convert anyone to atheism, but don't let the facts stop you mind tarring...

mid-tarring...