to ask how you feel when someone is at the opposite end of the faith spectrum?

[Morphene]

I've recently discovered two separate people I have been getting closer to (professional/friendship wise) are at the other end of the faith scale from me. I have actually felt a little upset and unbalanced by it.

IABU? I mean I know I am, but do other people get this? Does it make a difference if you are the one with or without faith?

I am sure I will still get on just fine with them, but I feel a little sadness that in this important respect we are very far from each others wavelength.

I read the whole thread.

Did you miss the bit where you STARTED A WHOLE THREAD JUST TO SAY HOW MUCH YOU LOOKED DOWN ON RELIGIOUS PEOPLE?

Basically, OP, I don't have any problems being friends with you because of your lack of faith, but you have a problem being friends with me because of my faith.

And yet in your world view, that makes me the intolerant one!

IMO organised religion has always been a control mechanism aswell as a way of life, but because of the spread of information over the last decades is becoming redundant. Kind of like the beliefs of a small tribe recently exposed to the wider world. That is not to say that some of the teachings of religion can be very important, hence how different religions correlate on certain points.
It looks like many of us humans are a product of our upbringing and cultural beliefs, and stay on that track as it is a major part of us. Imagine being born and raised in different circumstances.
I try not to let preconceptions, or religious and cultural differences change my interaction with other human beings, on a one-to -one level.

So don't be surprised that I lump you in with the 'intolerant smug atheist' category.

@ the OP.

Hear hear cvbn. I happen to be an atheist, but I'm also someone who has looked at the world around me and noticed that there are many intelligent, insightful and kind religious people, and many atheists who are mean idiots.

Given that science tends to subscribe to certain paradigms which are not unlike religions in dominating accepted scientific discourse - right up to the moment when they are disproved utterly and replaced!

Scientific paradigms and laws are based on proven hypothesis and experimentation. Religious doctrine is based on hearsay, tradition, fear of authority and old books. Unlike religion, scientific theories are disproved and replaced (I prefer updated) based on evidence and new findings carried out by physical experimentation. Things change in religious doctrines in the same ways they were conceived in the first place.

also...i'm still kinda waiting for Christianity to be rebooted, rejected or replaced. Its been 2000 odd years, so it must be due a relaunch with updated moral and ethical guidelines to match where humanity has gotten to? (I will leave aside the thorny question of why a book from God has somewhat less good moral guidance than your average human being on the street would come up with these days)

The very best thing about science is the way new evidence rips up failed theories. Religions could learn a lot from the process.

If you've suddenly realised gay people are human beings too, then why not rewrite the book? If you've suddenly worked out that other religions aren't the enemy, then why not start over with some better more open minded prose?

I would like to give the current Pope a massive thumbs up for his efforts in this department...but he is fighting an uphill battle and until there is a 50/50 chance the Pope is a woman, there is still a long way to go.

I think it more depends on the context. It depends on why and how they have faith. They may still have a very similar outlook to you about life in general. IMO pure Atheists and extremely religious people tend to have a similar outlook. Everyone on the rest of the scale is workable with! Its people who wont accept any ideas but the one they have chosen that you ought to be wary of.

Faith is a personal matter and i think decent and reasonable people understand that. Its unique to individuals and is about the way in which they have experienced life. When someone tries to act like they get to have more of an idea of whether someone else should or shouldnt have faith than that person does, then i dont think they are worth bothering with.

So whatever personal ideas someone has, as long as they dont think they need to force those ideas on others in any way, i reckon they could still be a good person to hang out with!!

X post with Morphene, who said it so much better!

I think I already acknowledged that it appears that atheists are less tolerant than vice versa, and even made a hypothesis as to why.

I've said I have far less issue with someone believing in God than I have with them believing in the idea that Brexit is the way forward, or that the conservatives should be in power.

So I can't really see how that makes me a raving faithophobe.

Though to be fair you don't know how much I hate the Brexiteers or Conservatives....

So I shall clarify. I have friends with deep religious beliefs. I just feel a little sad when it turns out someone I was getting on with like a house on fire, tells me they go to church.

zaphod the thing is that I spent the first 18 years of my life in church 2 or 3 times a week.

If listening to moralising and the bible being quoted continually was enough then I would surely have faith. But I don't and I never have.

I honestly don't understand it - I wish I did.

I think the development of artificial intelligence is going to be very revealing in this area. We may get to find out exactly what preconditions are needed to produce a mind that believes in God as opposed to one that doesn't.

What I value is tolerance of others' differences.

Forgive me if I am equally unimpressed by those who state quite categorically that I am either stupid or going to hell because I don't believe exactly what they believe.

Lack of proof is not - as any scientist should know - proof of lack, so until the OP has categorically proved beyond all reasonable doubt that God cannot exist, I'll continue to quietly and privately hold the views that I do, which affect no-one but me. I promise not to try to convert anyone. And would appreciate others extending that respect to me.

OP - apparently the Christian faith, and it's derivatives, are anticipating the second coming of Christ.. so you may get your re -write then!

Ollie, I actually think you're underestimating the role that authority plays in disseminating religious beliefs. For example, I'm a middle class humanities graduate. I'm an atheist who believes in the scientific method, evolution, climate change and quantum theory. I think I understand the first two, but I definitely couldn't explain the second two adequately. I believe in them basically because I believe in the scientific method and because I trust that universities with a name I recognise (Oxbridge/Harvard etc) and awards that I've heard of (Nobel prize/fields medal/etc) have endorsed the studies that have proven, or near enough proven these things. But why do I trust the Oxbridge name, or scientists in general? Could it be that I have myself done well out of the same system that they are a part (I have a good job thanks to my Oxbridge degree, and friends who are scientists).

If I didn't have the same faith in the system, or the same reasons to have faith in the system, why should I have more credence in the views of someone who is a professor at Harvard than someone who is a professor at Brigham Young University?

If you've been screwed over by the system, and feel that the media and politicians (also part of the same broad cultural and economic elite as scientists) don't represent you and even lie about your experience, why should you accept the authority of scientists and have faith in something you don't understand?

I think that sometimes it can be very difficult to recognise which of our beliefs are culturally formed when things seem very obvious to us. But the vast majority of people who hold beliefs about science which I would regard as being correct, hold them on the basis of faith in the social order, rather than a priori or through personally satisfying themselves of their veracity.

I'm not sure you are going to get an answer to something likely to be so culturally guided by AI! Eg a large percentage of US people go to church and a far smaller percentage of UK people. I doubt people in the US have radically different minds. Well, with some notable high profile exceptions

Sorry - first sentence should say non-religious beliefs

OP Christianity has almost always in those 2000 years differed in various ways (sometimes extremely so) from the prevailing culture and ethics of the world around it - which vary from place to place. So I think you will be waiting a while if you expect it to completely reboot now to match England 2017! Even so, you asked a lot of interesting questions and also raised some points that I think mischaracterise what I believe personally but that doesn't really matter as this thread was about your colleagues- I do think you might find it interesting to raise that with them. You would probably have an interesting conversation even if you didn't end up best mates.

Ah, so you have 'issues' from going (having to go?) to church as a child.

Please realise your issues are with whoever made you go, not with every single person in the world who has a religious outlook that is different to yours. I do get that having someone else's religion shoved down your throat unwillingly must be very upsetting. But then understand that with this thread, you're doing just the same, only in reverse, and trying to force your atheism on those who don't want it.

We are not your parents! Please leave us out of it. We are not your problem!

if youve been getting on like a house on fire do you then not think that your reaction to them going to church is based on prejudice?
Clearly you find them intelligent and engaging and clearly you didnt think that someone who went to church would be like that.

Perhaps try and look at it as something interesting rather than something to cause you sadness?
Its certainly a good topic for discussion. I imagine if you get on with them as much as you say that it may actually add to your friendship.

CVBN Well I guess you only have my word for it that I never try to convert anyone, but, as you can see from my posts, I believe that faith or lack thereof is a built in component of the brain. So it is kind of pointless trying to apply external evidence in either direction.

What I will defend is the scientific method. It has nothing of interest to say regarding the non-existence of God, but may have a lot to say about the nature and cause of belief in God. It also has a lot to say about nature, complexity, evolution and happens to be the reason that computers and the internet exist.

People who compare science to religion are genuinely being daft, whether they are atheists or theists.

Lack of proof is not - as any scientist should know - proof of lack, so until the OP has categorically proved beyond all reasonable doubt that God cannot exist, I'll continue to quietly and privately hold the views that I do, which affect no-one but me. I promise not to try to convert anyone. And would appreciate others extending that respect to me.

No one has tried to convert you to anything...
But trying to shift the burden of proof on the op doesn't work here. They never said that they were absolutely sure there is no god and can prove it. Also- when scientists acknowledge that there is lack of proof for something, they don't just believe in it til its proved otherwise.

cvbn I asked if other people felt the same way I do. If other people felt vaguely uncomfortable to discover their friends have different religious views to them.

That isn't actually the same as forcing atheism down peoples throats.

At least I don't see how it is.

morphene - I don't think you are alone in religious indoctrination not working on you, and I also grew up to a lesser extent than you, involved in a christian school, prayers etc. I decided to choose my own beliefs. Some do, some don't. People need to believe in something, be it science -based, or some form of religion / spiritualism.

bat I don't think that is the nature of my surprise, as I already know many religious people who I consider way smarter than me.