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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that it is a genuine possibility that the Sarin attacks have been falsified by the us to legitimise air strikes

191 replies

Beadoren · 13/04/2017 23:12

As above really...

Have we been totally conditioned by the media to believe that the uk/us are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys. I think the us have form for things like this, does video constitute proof? All just rings a bit of the whole Iraq war thing. Do they just have different agendas in Syria than Russia?

OP posts:
TiredBefuddledRose · 14/04/2017 09:26

I have friends who are working in aid relief out there, those chemical attacks happened as did the airstrikes against hospitals afterwards.
I've seen footage of the devastation caused that could not be faked.
The msm haven't picked up on this heartbreaking footage and I have to question why... (well I don't, it doesn't fit the agenda)

SaucyJack · 14/04/2017 09:27

"Assad, whilst a nasty dictator, did keep a relatively stable and secular country until the civil war started."

Assad was President for a whole 8 months of peace before the beginning of the Syrian Civil War- which occurred as a response to the violent actions of the Syrian military during peaceable Arab Spring protests which were happening in various parts of the Arab world at the time.

DJBaggySmalls · 14/04/2017 09:28

The gassing happened.
Assad. Putin and Trump are colluding.

They are all fucking disgusting power mongers.

Elendon · 14/04/2017 09:29

Good question TheBogQueen

He didn't really want the role of 'heir apparent' wanting to be an eye specialist consultant instead! After the death of his older brother, he had no option.

Despite the awful and horrendous attacks, the West don't want him to leave, just to concede. It really is a despicable situation with innocent civilians caught firmly in the crossfire at a terrible cost.

Shakirasma · 14/04/2017 09:30

burntheblacksuit you have just saved me writing a proper post, you have put exactly what I think about the whole thing.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 14/04/2017 09:36

A bit convenient?
The previous week the States practically gave Assad the green light by saying that removing Assad was no longer a priority. Assad decided to either take advantage of that or to test it.

Same with North Korea, they are pushing the bounds because they have a new and 'interesting' foe they want to test.

Trump has changed his mind with the wind (i.e. to side with whoever spoke to him in the last 5 minutes) thoughout his campaign and before. He doesn't actually have any real policies or moral stances himself - he's all about business deals - and is so easily manipulated as a result.

specialsubject · 14/04/2017 09:48

Keep an open mind and question. Then evaluate the evidence and decide.

And the evidence is that Assad dropped the chemical weapons.

Medeci · 14/04/2017 09:53

As PP has said, surely the most logical explanation is that ISIS did it to provoke US intervention?
The BBC site only shows a very short edited clip of the Assad interview, so worth listening to it in full on

histinyhandsarefrozen · 14/04/2017 09:57

And the other times? That was Isis too?

Creatureofthenight · 14/04/2017 09:59

I don't think ISIS have air strike capability.

80sMum · 14/04/2017 10:03

OP, my first thoughts when it happened were the same as yours ie that it could have been CIA orchestrated. But then I told myself that I had been watching too much Homeland and dismissed the thought. The truth is, do we ever know "the truth" or is everything we see seen through a propaganda filter?

TheBogQueen · 14/04/2017 10:08

I've read that really there are no 'good guys' fighting for power in Syria, just warring tribes with civilians caught in the crossfire. Isis happen to be well funded through selling Iraqi oil.

It's a bloody mess and with Russia and US involvement and obviously not likely to be resolved anytime soon.

It gets more media coverage because Isis have impacted us in Europe and the US in the most horrific ways.

As we have seen this week - with Trump dropping the 'mother of all bombs' on Afghanistan- what happens in Syria can tip the balance of world power and stability in just a few days.
It's given a lot of coverage because it affects our safety.

lisaIambe · 14/04/2017 10:29

We have 100% been conditioned to believe that we are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys. But no, I don't believe the US are behind the gas. I do believe we should let Putin sort out Syria, but perhaps that's an issue for another thread.

saoirse31 · 14/04/2017 10:57

Assad is president since 2000 for one of posters above.

Re chemical attack being real or not, I'd say it was real chemical attack. Who carried it out , I presume Assad or Isis or other Syrian rebels. Who's ultimately responsible? Whoever did it plus their funders.

I do think though some posters above have an unjustifiable belief in what 'serious media' say. Some research, even just looking back at how other wars were reported might be interesting. Every publication has an editorial slant.

In these situations, ie when youre deciding whom to believe, I'm inclined to remember Dennings comment re 'appalling vista', and then consider the truth of the situation to which he was referring.

LouiseBrooks · 14/04/2017 11:14

I think essentially at this point in time a lot of the news is propaganda

I presume you've heard of Pravda? Our press are amateurs compared to the Russians and do you seriously think that Assad runs a free press? Whatever their faults the idea that Western journalists are less truthful than a dictator and his pals is a joke.

Beadoren · 14/04/2017 11:18

Where did I say that our press was less truthful than Assads and Putins? I'm actually just saying it is impossible to access an objective truth from the media because of bias and things that are covered up. There are, however other perspectives to look at what is happening from, which might give is more insight than just simply thinking, cool, USA save the day yet again.

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lisaIambe · 14/04/2017 11:29

Beadoren I'm with you. The problem is not that the western media is corrupt. The problem is that we are stuck in the mentality that west = good, Russia= bad. Of course the press reflects that problem, but it's not because it's corrupt. It's because we can't get our heads around the fact that Russia might have a point.

And no, I am not saying I agree with Putin's methods. But his thinking, absolutely.

mpsw · 14/04/2017 11:41

"OP, my first thoughts when it happened were the same as yours ie that it could have been CIA orchestrated. But then I told myself that I had been watching too much Homeland and dismissed the thought. The truth is, do we ever know "the truth" or is everything we see seen through a propaganda filter?"

Less Homeland, more Halabja

The US spent months and years after the attack insisting that it was Iranian use of CW against their own. It took considerable time and the amassing of evidence before it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was Iraq.

Assumptions on who did it were then based on 'who we want to have done it, because it suits our narrative'. I would like to think that the world has moved on, and that this couldn't happen again. But I'm not totally sure.

KellysZeros · 14/04/2017 11:57

Beadoren, at the risk of opening a can of worms, what "other perspectives" should we be looking at?

lisaIambe · 14/04/2017 12:04

The Russian perspective, kelly. I'm not saying I agree with the way Putin goes about things, but he has the right idea on the Middle East. He understands that the west's so-called "plan" isn't going to work and that Assad is the best of a bad set of options. Us lot are intent on taking power, imposing a form of government in Syria which simply does not work within Arab culture as it is right now, walking away and being faced with the same problem in a few years.

Think of Syria like a wound on a battlefield, surgery not possible. The west wants to put a sticking plaster over it and hope it might work. Russia wants to put in stitches. Won't be perfect and it'll leave a hell of an ugly scar, but it will work an awful lot better than the sticking plaster.

KellysZeros · 14/04/2017 12:44

What is his idea exactly? Keep a dictator who uses brutal methods, to ensure that you keep a port on the Med?

histinyhandsarefrozen · 14/04/2017 13:08

Op, who is thinking 'cool USA saves the day again'? Most of the commentary I've read is far more nuanced/and apprehensive than that.

Also, what are you inferring by 'it's a bit convenient'? What's your theory?

lisaIambe · 14/04/2017 13:09

No, Kelly, it's deeper than that.

I'll try and keep this as brief as possible. A couple of years back I was struggling with this same problem, I was an undergrad at the time. One of my academics, top guy working on this stuff, told me that in order to understand the Middle East, you need to stop falling into the trap of viewing it through the lens of post-colonialism.

Essentially, what that means is you need to stop and think about how you see the world. Democracy =good, autocracy = bad is a western construct. Democracy as a system of government was born in the west and has developed in the west over centuries to the point that it's at today. Democracy is an alternative form of government to the Assad model, ie, autocratic. Distance yourself from the word dictator for the moment. Stop assuming that just because democracy is what we have, it must be best in every situation.

The next common trap is to assume that Syria started because of the Arab spring. It didn't. Syria was not part of the wave of Arab countries that rose up because the people demanded democracy, the Sunnis demanded to be ruled by a Sunni leader. Islamic theory is not compatible with democracy. It calls for a strong leader of the faith. That's what Syria was about- to put it very simply, Assad = Islamic sect closest to Shia, majority Muslim population in Syria = Sunni. They wanted a Sunni leader first and foremost, not democracy. Assad recognised the religious tensions, that's why he ran his country secularly. People from my own minority religion in Syria will happily tell you that they wish they could go back to the days of Assad. As long as you didn't speak out against the regime, you were allowed to practice in peace, be it Sunni or Shia Islam, Yazidis, Orthodox Christians etc. People were pretty happy with that- apart from the Sunni rebel groups who rose up. The same ones the British government wanted to back at the very beginning, one of which turned out to be ISIS.

The current western plan for Syria is to remove Assad, destroy ISIS and attempt to set up a democracy. Remember that democracy and Islam in its purest form aren't particularly compatible. I'm not going to go into Islamic theory here. Also remember that democracy as it exists in the west is fluid. It has evolved over hundreds of years. We have seen time and time again in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan that going in all guns blazing, setting up a democracy on a western model and leaving them to it does not work. Sometimes it doesn't even take a year to collapse. Islam, tribes, culture, lack of experience of that kind of culture etc are all contributing factors here. The fact is, it doesn't work.

Putin understands that. Putin has an interest in a stable Middle East for a lot of reasons- the port is just one of those. One rather large one being the sizeable Muslim population in Russia. Forget Chechnya for a moment, that's a whole separate issue and will overcomplicate matters here, lots of other regions of Russia predominantly populated by Muslims. Putin gets that democracy has failed in the Middle East time and time again. Maybe it will work one day, but it's not ready for it right now.

What does work- and what even the rebel groups actually want- is a strong autocratic leader. The problem is not a want for democracy, it's a fight between religious groups as to which religion that leader should belong. Remember again here that Syria was largely peaceful for so long before all this kicked off because the country was run secularly.

I am not saying that reinstating Assad is an ideal solution. I am saying that it's a more realistic option than the west's plan.

Beadoren · 14/04/2017 13:15

But all of the options use brutal methods. The FSA who the US arm and want in power have been accused of to following:

Kidnappings and torture including a news crew
Cutting out the organs of Syrian soldier and eating them
Using terrorism
Being islamists
Trial by grave
Child soldiers

There's more. Google it. The US are very much not the knights in shining armour delivering freedom from Assad to the oppressed rebels, they are arming and backing a rebel army which has an appalling humanitarian record itself. Which is why I think it's worth looking at the other perspective which we don't hear about what the rebels have been doing.

The rhetoric seems to be very much Assad bad, let's get rid of him but there is v little on the news about the alternatives, I wonder why that is? Probably because of that became part of the dialogue it would be more difficult for Trump to claim humanitarian reasons for attacking a regime which doesn't fit in with his political agenda.

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histinyhandsarefrozen · 14/04/2017 13:20

The US are very much not the knights in shining armour delivering freedom from Assad to the oppressed rebels, they are arming and backing a rebel army which has an appalling humanitarian record itself.

Eh, who on earth is saying they are knights in armour?

Most sane people are very,very anxious about Trump's intervention. Most people know that the Syria situation is a mess and there's no simple solution.

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