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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

999 replies

windygallows · 09/04/2017 22:18

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

OP posts:
corythatwas · 10/04/2017 12:25

"No it wasn't the point of this thread but I was acknowledging that not all women are ambitious, will be skilled or are clever - so not all women will 'reach for the stars' even if this is what parents want or what you try to teach your DDs. "

So why is this different for women? Why is this something we should be teaching our daughters rather than our sons? Are all men ambitious, skilled or clever. And why do other men not deserve to get married, whilst women do? Why did you specify daughters in your post?

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 10/04/2017 12:26

- hardly any men want to be self-sufficient

Just, wow!

user1490817986 · 10/04/2017 12:35

I don't think there will ever be true equality for both sexes, especially women. So many women just want the marriage and kids thing and to give up work, whilst men don't really have a choice if they want to give up work or reduce their hours. Years ago it was the norm for women to stay at home because they didn't have things like washing machines, hot water, tumble dryers etc everything really was manual labour.

I just think the whole SAHM thing is very oppressive and damaging to women. Obviously women need time to recover from the birth and bond with baby, but a lot of women just see having children as a way of avoiding the workplace and having to be a bit more independent than having to rely on another adult to fund you. I'm sorry but there is nothing equal about that. Women have a long, long way to go.

FlyAwayPeter · 10/04/2017 12:39

Excellent questions, Cory.

This is a very depressing thread.

sweetcarolines · 10/04/2017 12:42

For me, marrying well is marrying a man who loves the bones of you, who will look after you emotionally and treat you with respect. One who will be a good father.. a good person, someone who loves their family and friends and someone who will be there for you no matter what. Money has fuck all to do with it!

BluePeppersAndBroccoli · 10/04/2017 12:45

windy why should my son ride that wave of patriarchy as you put it and loose on seeing his dcs, loose on having a relaxed lifestyle, loose on all what women who stay at home will have and you are hoping your dd will have??
Why should it be OK for women to get all that but not for men?

And all of cory questions.

AntiGrinch · 10/04/2017 12:57

Why "wow" Pangalactic? It's true that most men want a partner and most expect that benefits will accrue to their lifestyle because of having one. I am not saying "most men don't want to work" but "most men don't want to do everything themselves" (who does?).

If you read it as "most men don't want to do anything" then you are making the usual mistake of erasing the value of women's work. You think that men who have jobs are self sufficient. they rarely are.

notinagreatplace · 10/04/2017 13:06

Let me get this straight: are you suggesting that the vast historical and current coopting of access to financial rewards for their labour in favour of men as opposed to women.... is somehow..... a conspiracy.... by women?

No. I'm suggesting two things:

  1. That society/the patriarchy just doesn't expect women to earn proper salaries - women are, by and large, expected to scale back their work if they have proper jobs when they have kids or they just go into "little jobs" from the beginning that work around family. I think feminism is now at the point where women need to take seriously that they are also able to earn money and shouldn't just expect to rely on a man. If a DD of mine - to go back to another post - somehow ended up only earning £10k, I would be encouraging her to retrain, not to give up on earning and marry a rich man. I would do the same to my DS. I don't think that it's feminist to say or think "oh, well, she can just have babies."
  1. What user... said already, "Obviously women need time to recover from the birth and bond with baby, but a lot of women just see having children as a way of avoiding the workplace and having to be a bit more independent than having to rely on another adult to fund you. I'm sorry but there is nothing equal about that. Women have a long, long way to go."

In summary - some of it's society's fault and some of it is individual women (e.g women who think - very depressingly - that it's just not possible for all women to earn their own money, some will have to find a man to live off but who would never expect a man to just opt out of earning a living.)

bluetongue · 10/04/2017 13:17

Is this a zombie thread from the 1950's ? Confused

Reactivedog · 10/04/2017 13:19

Is this a zombie thread from the 1950's ?

It might be given that nurses have been described as not equal in relation to Drs.

That must be in 'catch' terms.

StarUtopia · 10/04/2017 13:22

My ex, who was lovely, would have been an example of me 'marrying well'

A lot of woman would definitely have married him. For security, nice holidays, no financial worries etc. He really was a lovely guy.

But I wasn't in love with him and after 5 yrs didn't fancy him in the slightest. He was my best friend though.

My husband now - amazing. But skint!

Definitely a lot easier to be with a rich guy!!! Husband would be 200% perfect if he earned a lot more money! But we are happy and I"m in love!

However, even husband says he will be encouraging our daughter to marry a guy with money!

VestalVirgin · 10/04/2017 13:23

So why is this different for women? Why is this something we should be teaching our daughters rather than our sons

Because a son who was idealistic and didn't think about his future when opting to study something like, say, philosophy, where he can't get a job, can still get a manual labor job, or become a taxi driver, and make a living on that.
He is also at no risk of becoming a single father and suddenly needing loads more money and having loads less time because of one contraception failure.

And no, women cannot just get a manual labor job or become taxi drivers, because jobs for women without education are paid much worse than jobs for men on the same education level; and there are so many women sexually assaulted by taxi drivers that it doesn't take a genius to see at how much risk from random male strangers a female taxi driver would be.

There is no equality in the real world out there. You might not like OP's thoughts no the matter, but don't you dare shame her for being more worried about her daughters than about her sons.

originalbiglymavis · 10/04/2017 13:24

I have to say that despites my mums 1930s attitudes, all of us girls in the family studied and got good jobs. Who didnt? I'm looking at you, DB!

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 10/04/2017 13:44

I notice that @windygallows has yet to answer any of my posts.

Basically, my point is this - why should my sons work hard at school and university, and do their best to get good jobs just so they can be used as a cashpoint by the OP's daughters? Why don't they deserve to have partners who love them for who they are, with whom they can have a mutually supportive relationship?

wheatchief · 10/04/2017 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HotSince82 · 10/04/2017 14:06

There's a pragmatism inherent in that conversation which I can't help but admire.

Of course its not fundamentally as simple as exchanging sex for security and a comfortable existence.
She'd be looking at trading on her youth, beauty and (probably) compliant nature too.

Still many women waste such attributes and still dont have the proverbial pot to piss in....

I dont know. Idealism is marvellous in theory but theres a lot to be said for using what you have to your best advantage.

Not everybody is bequeathed an above average IQ, a pretty face is a good consolation prize and one which I'll be urging my daughters not to waste on a pauper (as I evidently have) Grin

Karanka · 10/04/2017 14:06

And no, women cannot just get a manual labor job or become taxi drivers

Why can't women become taxi drivers exactly? All the female taxi drivers in our town must have missed that.

Cocopopsrule · 10/04/2017 14:23

Haven't rtft but no, my mum never recommended marrying for money. She always said, rely on no-one except yourself. Always have a get out fund. I'll be advising my daughter to expect the best in terms of an equal and open partnership, whilst always planning for the worst

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 10/04/2017 14:23

VestalVirgin

*Because a son who was idealistic and didn't think about his future when opting to study something like, say, philosophy, where he can't get a job, can still get a manual labor job, or become a taxi driver, and make a living on that.
He is also at no risk of becoming a single father and suddenly needing loads more money and having loads less time because of one contraception failure.

And no, women cannot just get a manual labor job or become taxi drivers, because jobs for women without education are paid much worse than jobs for men on the same education level; and there are so many women sexually assaulted by taxi drivers that it doesn't take a genius to see at how much risk from random male strangers a female taxi driver would be. *

What planet are you on?

Firstly, even a philosophy degree has transferable skills and stands you in a better position for 'higher' job than someone with only, say, GCSE's to their name. Like graduate jobs, which are for, well, graduates... Not everyone plans to work in their chosen subject!

Secondly, men have every chance of becoming single parents. Relationship split? Death? Mother continuing the pregnancy but handing the child over to the father to raise? Social services removing the child? All ways in which a man can suddenly become a single father. Yes, it won't be him carrying the baby and no he doesn't 'have to' step up, but neither does the mother so the moral issues are the same on both sides. A man can still suddenly become a single parent through taking his responsibility.

A woman can just as easily work as a taxi driver, even labourer, or a carer or anything else.

Finally, the majority of men are not rapists and most women don't spend their lives in fear of men.

If women want equality and respect then they should be trying for it, showing they are equal, being able to look after themselves. Not blinking planning on finding a better paid husband to support her because she thinks she should have all of lives luxuries for no apparent reason.

BoboChic · 10/04/2017 14:26

The "self-sufficiency" argument is ludicrous. No human is self-sufficient. Exchange with other humans is our destiny.

windygallows · 10/04/2017 14:31

SDTG I've been in meetings and at work this afternoon so hard to post.

I don't expect men to be cashpoints for women but you may find that men who DO well (as your DS may do) will start to have expectations and may know they can trade their success for a better/prettier/more desirable woman. You don't think that happens? Try going to business school and listening to the banter of the guys there. Not all men but many do feel their currency goes up when they are high earners.

And when your DS is really successful and needs his DP to stay at home with the DCs because he doesn't have time to do drop off and pick up or anything else in between, given that he's so successful... will you consider his DP prostituting herself?
Just saying....

It's very hard to make the exact comparison for men given that they DO have an advantage in society generally.

OP posts:
Karanka · 10/04/2017 14:32

And no, women cannot just get a manual labor job

I also wish someone had told me this a while ago - our organisation has worked very hard to promote jobs in manual industries (engineering, transport, construction) to women as viable career routes, particularly as well rewarded careers in these industries generally start from working relatively low-level manual jobs. There are certainly barriers (not least in perceptions of certain occupations) but it's extremely retrograde to declare that women just can't get these jobs.

Foureyesarebetterthantwo · 10/04/2017 14:33

Because a son who was idealistic and didn't think about his future when opting to study something like, say, philosophy, where he can't get a job, can still get a manual labor job, or become a taxi driver, and make a living on that Can I just agree that students with a philosophy degree from a good uni are exceptionally employable! I know the stats, and they do better than in some more traditionally employable degrees. This may reflect their pre-existing wealth and connections, but also reflects their brain power (often coming in with all As and leaving with a nice first). I would encourage my dd to be interested in men who do philosophy degrees, many of them often work in the City/consulting firms as they are also strong in maths.

I wouldn't encourage my dd to 'marry well' though as this would be to do her down and imply that all she has to offer is to be a 'good wife'- ugh!

Foureyesarebetterthantwo · 10/04/2017 14:38

I also agree with the person that says that most professionals want to marry a fairly equal professional, the days of marrying a nice devoted but essentially less educated wife and letting her stay home while you all survive on one income are truly over.

Once you get into trophy wife territory of the uber wealthy and very arrogant male, I would strongly encourage my girls not to touch these men with a bargepole- the money isn't worth it, they are often obsessed by work and don't see their wives as valuable and clever individuals in their own life, they are also prone to looking for replacements when they deem themselves too young and hot to have a middle aged wife themselves. Also, they encourage their wives often to downsize career-wise and focus on the home, which is fatal then if they are left 20 years down the line.

'Marrying well' is an outdated concept and not at all how I'd want my daughter to frame their futures.

minipie · 10/04/2017 14:39

to the people like the OP who are encouraging their daughters to dig for gold...have you considered what the sort of men who are happy to provide for a trophy wife want?? If you want to marry a Donald Trump, you have to be a Melania.

This precisely.

IME most high achieving, high earning men want to marry women who have similar abilities and drives. So the best way to marry a high achieving man is to be high achieving yourself. (In which case, you don't need to marry a high achieving man, though you may prefer to because of what you have in common).

However, there are a few high achieving men who don't want a similar wife, they want a "trophy wife". I wouldn't want my DD to marry one of those for the world. They'd just be thrown over at the first sign of crows' feet.

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