AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

I don't think we should raise our daughters to feel the need to look for any kind of partner. How about just raise them to be independent and happy on their own. Im not marrying for money. My ex was well off and my gosh was he a horrible man. My fiancé is lovely, not as well off but loyal , respectful and loving. No amount of money can buy that.

some men don't hear "independent". They hear "meal ticket".

I think this is much much more true of women than it is men. How many women on here just mysteriously "don't have the same earning potential" as their wealthy husbands. Really, you should be warning your sons, rather than your daughters.

But I hope that my DS will see what we do rather than what we say - two parents who both work and both do domestic labour.

I have 3 daughters and I will be encouraging them and supporting them to do whatever makes them happy and do it to the best of their abilities. I will not be sitting down having conversations about the merits of future partners. I hope they live the life they want to live whatever that may be.

I earn an above average salary but my God its difficult being the sole earner with all of the incumbent financial responsibility/worry

Interesting how we expect men to bear this burden as a matter of course ...

I wish somebody had sat me down and told me that I was worth nothing less than a financially supportive partner.

what an insulting and deliberately inflammatory comment from notinagreatplace comparing sahms to prostitutes. (but these threads do seem to treat sahms as fair game for ridicule, vitriol and mud slinging)

Honestly, I think you're overlooking the changes in the 'marriage market' if you even think this is possible or helpful advice.

To put it simply: doctors don't marry nurses any more, they marry other doctors. Lawyers marry other lawyers, not their PAs. Increasingly high-earning men want a partner who is an equal, not a pretty face who'd be happy to stay at home. Yes, some of those women will take career steps down or become SAHMs, but in general you get a high-flying partner by flying high yourself, and it has the added advantage of allowing you to develop and maintain your own earning potential should you split.

(Please, no emails from doctors married to nurses; I get it.)

I would personally hate it at home, 'comfortable' or no. Work gives me challenge, stimulation, self development. And yes, I rest very comfortable in the knowledge that I can support my children by myself if needed, thank you very much. I am in my marriage because it enriches my life, not because it maintains my bank balance.

Elisaveta - of course there are sacrifices made when you have a DP working long hours or you yourself do. But that suggests that only high earners have to deal with a lot of drudgery or absent husbands -- talk to the women doing low paid shift work in conjuction with their husbands also doing low-paid shift work who never get to see each other as they try to jointly work and manage childcare between them. The loneliness of life with a long-working hedge fund manager doesn't compare, frankly.

Yes that's also true that this type of loneliness can occur at any income level, though I'm not sure on what you're basing your claim that one type of never getting to see each other is less lonely than another. That sounds like something you've just invented. It would certainly be better to be rich and lonely than poor and lonely, but that's not what you said.

But other possibilities exist. There's a middle ground between two low paid shift workers and one works all hours high earner plus one SAHP. Your argument doesn't really explore this. In particular, you're ignoring the fact that in order to have meaningful part time work, sometimes a very hard working and high earning partner can actually make this more difficult. As I said upthread, being PT and being a SAHP shouldn't be lumped in together in this respect.

"the ambition to be self-sufficient "

• hardly any men want to be self-sufficient. The thing is, if you take the earning responsibility off the man, few will replace it with the other responsibilities.

HotSince

"Why didnt I seek out a solvent partner?

Well I didnt think myself worthy of a partners financial assistance; mostly due to very negative relations with my father and a prevailing sense of utter unworthiness."

Same here. I also thought subconsciously I think that I couldn't be oppressed by a man who wasn't even keeping me. This is completely wrong and statistically is always wrong.

I am in therapy now but I wish I had dealt with all this decades ago

windy knowing that there are just as many men than women who are NOT ambitious, will be skilled or are clever (your definition), where does it leave those men?

Are seeing that women who marry men who ear nicely have a 'much more cushioned life', will that be OK for my ds, who isn't 'ambitious, will be skilled or are clever' to aim to get married with you in your dds on the ground that they are earning more money so it will allow him a more cushioned life?
I mean I've taught him well, he knows how tidy up, wash, push the Hoover around. Will that be enough do you think?

Ah yes undersecretary, the whole 'assortative mating' thing.

Elisaveta - I get that there are lots of options and nuances to various options for balancing work between two couples. But the example I gave of a woman who worked shift work between her husband is one from MN. Of course there is loneliness and challenges at all levels but it IS much easier having to be responsible for childcare and the household when money isn't an issue.

I can't think of any women I know who were actually low earners before they became SAHMs. It was more often the case that both her and her partner had highly demanding jobs. Or they met their DH at uni or work. I don't know any women who dossed about in the expectation that they would one day be taken care of.

Notinagreatplace - there is nothing "deeply strange" about being a SAHM if you

A) you are not bored at home
B) you don't want to use childcare
C) you don't feel that your self-worth is defined by a job title or salary
D) your DH works extremely long hours, is very career focused and not therefore likely to take on much at home
E) the whole family benefits from the set up

Same here Anti

How could I be controlled when i was supposedly self sufficient?
(hollow laugh)

I hope your therapy is proving helpful

Blue I don't have sons so can't advise, really. But we live in a society where men often do better than women career wise despite not achieving as much educationally --- surely your son can ride that wave of patriarchy?

Thank you HotSince! to you too

When I moved in with my ex without being married, my mother was upset but she wrote to me in a letter that she wished and hoped that we would always love and cherish and be kind to one another. I felt a funny little flip in my heart when I read it because I think I knew that he did not cherish me and that I could not reply upon him to be kind. I think a truly kind man would always try his hardest to make his partner comfortable through his work.

(And I know that I always did too, and I would hope that my daughters would be kind and honourable people. but that isn't what we are talking about.)

Of course there is loneliness and challenges at all levels but it IS much easier having to be responsible for childcare and the household when money isn't an issue.

It is indeed OP, but that doesn't deal with the point that there are other options and that for some people, the high earning partner so I can be a SAHP won't be optimum. You're fundamentally seeing this in too black and white a fashion.

Acknowledging that there are lots of nuances doesn't address the fact that if you want meaningful PT work, which I would hazard a guess is just as common as wanting to be a SAHP, you might make this harder not easier by being with a higher earner.

What I think you're really saying is that we should be trying to educate our children to make choices most likely to allow them to avoid poverty. And that it's wise to think about more than whether you love someone when you marry them. Which are much more reasonable points, but equally require a lot more in the way of analysis than rich and lonely= better than poor and lonely.

There is also the issue of insurance, let's be honest. You can marry as rich as you like but that won't insulate you against the main earner getting ill, or working in an industry that goes pop one day. I'll be educating my children to give that some thought too.

I think this is much much more true of women than it is men. How many women on here just mysteriously "don't have the same earning potential" as their wealthy husbands. Really, you should be warning your sons, rather than your daughters.

I don't think it's especially surprising considering what ML can do to your career, and the way in which employers often discriminate agianst women of commonest childbearing age. That has at least something to do with it notinagreatplace. It's worthty of note that male earnings don't start to outstrip female until around the average age of first childbirth for a woman.

"How many women on here just mysteriously "don't have the same earning potential" as their wealthy husbands."

Let me get this straight: are you suggesting that the vast historical and current coopting of access to financial rewards for their labour in favour of men as opposed to women.... is somehow..... a conspiracy.... by women?

Thinking about it, the happiest women I know have never married at all!

Couldn't agree more

Undersecretary I agree. I know numerous lawyers and doctors. The vast majority of them have married their equals.

I know of one male lawyer whose wife is definitely not his equal in terms of intelligence / career but she's very very beautiful.

I know of a couple of single women who are looking to "marry well" and bag themselves a doctor or lawyer. Problem is they are not equals to these men in terms of intelligence, nor are they beautiful enough to be "trophy wives".

Also while I agree marrying someone with money can make life easier, you might also find yourself with a husband who never leaves the office, so you're effectively a single parent (albeit one who can afford help) .

All I can say is that from my experience of being a teenager and parenting one, the knowledge that your parents disapprove of a boy because his parents are poor or because he does not exhibit high earning potential - is quite the turn on! No-one wants to bang the 'lovely boy' your DM is half in love with

I don't think this has been mentioned on here yet, but to the people like the OP who are encouraging their daughters to dig for gold...have you considered what the sort of men who are happy to provide for a trophy wife want?? If you want to marry a Donald Trump, you have to be a Melania. Do you want your daughters to spend their lives agonising over their diets, starving themselves to be a size 6 even after kids, having plastic surgery from a young age, and basically having a miserable life trying to look like a model all the time?? The sort of high earning man who expects a woman to stay at home all the time won't want to be lavishing the bling on an ordinary looking size 12 woman with a few gray hairs and laughter lines. I'd far rather marry Mr nice-but-average, and be able to be Mrs nice-but-average, both working hard to provide for our family.

I've been mulling this over before posting. Marrying well is in fact something I'd wondered about now that my children are almost ready to fly the nest. I must admit while I can encourage their academic and sporting efforts I've just recently copped that the boy or girlfriend I mention as being nice becomes redundant immediately. It's makes me nervous and I'd give a lot to be able to stick my oar in and pick someone for them! I'd worry my son has not a mean bone in his body and will be saddled with a "mean girl "who will exploite his kind and gentle nature. I worry my daughters would meet some flash git and marry for money surrendering her power and independence for supposed security.

Give me decent fun kind hearted hard working partners for my kids and I'll die happy. Money probs drinking drugging gambling abuse - they cross all strata. Today's high earning banker could be tomorrow MS sufferer. I'd like to think my kids will be there in sickness and in health for richer and for poorer and with the education they have be ready to contribute equally in their partnerships whatever they chose. Life is tough and girls and boys will be mentally stronger if they have the feeling they have the tools to take care of themselves into old age and not be beholden to someone else all their lives.

I wouldn't say that makes you effectively a single parent horsesforcourses as imho, nothing is like being a single parent except being a single parent. But it's absolutely true that being with a high earner can enforce a certain type of lifestyle too, and that's not for everyone.