AIBU to beg you not to bet on the Grand National? It's animal abuse.

[hhorvath]

Please think about what you're condoning.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=grand+national+deaths&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhieOLlZXTAhUCOxoKHTDFDagQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=638

www.independent.co.uk/voices/grand-national-races-animal-cruelty-get-rid-of-dangerous-jump-a7672131.html

"It’s time for the Grand National again – that curious time of year when people who claim to like horses gather to exploit them, often hurting and killing them in the process.

Since 2000, 48 horses have died at the annual festival that the National is part of. Others have suffered horribly with broken backs, necks or legs, severed tendons, or heart attacks. This is the reality of British horse racing."

If you use this as entertainment, the blood of murdered horses is on your hands as well.

Would you bet on a race where human beings fell and broke their legs or necks and had to be shot? At least they would have consented. Horses cannot consent to this life.

Would you be "fine" with it as long as it hadn't happened since 2012, despite horses dying after the race from their injuries since then?

Please don't be dazzled by the so-called glamour of this bloodsport.

I do not agree with the grand national but I tend to keep my feeling on the down low except if people specifically ask me. I however just asked DH his opinion and am happy that he doesn't agree with it either.

She's peddling dangerous advice and giving false hope to terminally ill patients though, Sooty

I absolutely agree with you on the homeopathy issue, but that's not her being "joy-sucking and judgemental" about veganism/vegetarianism, which is what was being discussed.

This should not be national centric. Over 50 horses have been killed on UK racecourses this year alone. Equally, natural 'wastage' takes out hundreds more. Nearly 30,000 ex racers end up in slaughterhouses. The whole industry stinks.

I'm in two minds about the whole thing. I hate cruelty to animals and try to treat the ones I've got well. I'm sure there are abuses in horse racing but the ones which are put down are killed to save them from further suffering. I hate seeing pets such as rabbits and birds in tiny cages but don't advocate banning pets.

Albadross not really - whether we like it or not, if there was no industry they wouldn't have been bred in the first place. If there weren't a demand for ridden competition horses, people would have stopped breeding years ago. It's all relative.

Albadross not really - whether we like it or not, if there was no industry they wouldn't have been bred in the first place

And that is bad because........?

but the ones which are put down are killed to save them from further suffering

Suffering at the hands of a multi million pound industry where in addition to injury slow or mediocre doesn't cut it.

I brought up the weight issue because someone upthread said expecting a horse to carry 60kg was cruel

Apologies, I missed that bit. The weight carried is for me one of the least concerning bits of racing. At least the jockeys are weighed and the weight carried is kept down.

Despite his size and strength I won't let anyone more than 12 stone on my horse. Some people disagree and don't like it but I see it as my job to protect him and I don't see why he should carry more than that.

Gabilan

Despite someone who certainly sounded very knowledgeable say that horses spines weren't ever designed for load carrying and that you can see when wild horses were first saddled by looking for damage to their spines.

Where did your 12st limit come from? If it was some arbitrary limit set by someone with a vested interest in domesticated horses then you need to reconsider what has justified this limit (I assume the percentage of the horse's weight).

If you aren't 100% ethical in all areas, why do you think it's appropriate to lecture people

I don't know much about horse racing but this sentiment is willfully ignorant. If your not perfect having opinions is not on.....so nobody anywhere should have any opinions on anything or enter into any kind of advocacy...right

Where did your 12st limit come from? If it was some arbitrary limit set by someone with a vested interest in domesticated horses then you need to reconsider what has justified this limit (I assume the percentage of the horse's weight)

He's my horse. He's not in a riding school. It's my business what he carries and I've erred on the side of caution. I'm only 9 stone myself.

Working out what a horse can carry comfortably over prolonged periods is a vexed question. Some surveys seem to indicate around 10% of bodyweight. Others 15% and some sports governing bodies say 20% of a horse's body weight. Of course % body weight can only ever be a guide and if a horse goes out and puts on a large amount of weight itself it makes it less able to carry a rider, not more so.

The long term effects of carrying heavier weights seems to be under researched. However, when I was trying to work this out, I found there were various factors to take into consideration. For a horse to carry more weight it needs to be, in a sense, structurally sound. So short backed and preferably with short cannon bones and good bone. It also helps if it's muscled but not fat and has a good power to weight ratio.

I went partly on % of my horse's bodyweight but allowed for the fact that actually, he's not quite as strong as he might at first appear. He's slightly long in the back and his bone isn't as good as it could be for a horse of his build. Plus he's now middle aged and therefore less able to recover quickly. Added to which, from my experience of him he's very stoic and hides pain well so he would carry more without protesting, possibly damaging himself in the process.

12 stone is very much at the lower end of what horses of his stamp are expected to carry. I've deliberately set the limit low to protect him. Plus, he's my horse. If I don't want someone on him, they don't get on board. It's not for discussion and I'm not dictating what other people want to allow on their horses.

These horses are bred for horse racing, no different for breeding cattle for meat and milk, or chickens for meat and eggs.
A lot of money has been spent insuring the maximum safety of these horses. They wouldn't have got to being in the National if they didn't enjoy it as they wouldn't have run well enough in their previous races to even get a place in it!

I am now a convert regarding horse racing. I loved going to the races in my younger years, was absolutely smitten with the watching of it and the emotion it incited being at the side of the track (The National was always a big event in my family) - now, I cannot stand it. Researched it quite a lot last year, at the same time I decided to become vegetarian. I see things differently now and act accordingly. I don't try to change others views, but have found that plenty of people have an opinion on mine! Anything that 'uses' any creature is not acceptable to me.

And FYI Animals I would never use a horse's bodyweight as the sole means by which to calculate what a horse can carry as it's so obviously arbitrary. It's used by competition bodies because it's something relatively easily measured and calculated but it simply doesn't take into account the myriad things which affect strength.

yet, you've taken other nonsensical and non-measurable 'facts' into account.

Horses were never 'designed' to be weight-bearing animals. Not that any were really but animals such as cattle can do so due to perhaps coincidental structure.

You may well err on the side of caution as you should because carefully designed saddles can only go some way towards mitigating carrying some middle class, middle aged woman on their spine.

I disliked all of my parents' horses but (as my name might suggests) think horse meat was delicious. I think a humanely killed and ethically butchered animal is far, far kinder than someone who keeps an animal for simply carrying them around, hogging paths and roads, hurting the animals for nothing more than their own pleasure must be wearing blinkers of outstanding performance!

Matilda that statement is not correct. Coming from a very experienced 'horse person' the horses that have made it to the standard of grand national is down to there bloodlines and breeding and training NOT because they enjoy
Being forced at a gallop for miles. Fact

You may well err on the side of caution as you should because carefully designed saddles can only go some way towards mitigating carrying some middle class, middle aged woman on their spine

I don't think you'll find weight-carrying capacity is linked to the class, age or gender of the passenger. Still, look on the bright side. My horse is generally carrying me, not you and whatever outsized chip you have on your shoulder.

Oh and he's on the road by right. But he's gorgeous so deal with it.

yet, you've taken other nonsensical and non-measurable 'facts' into account

No. I've taken biomechanics into account.

YANBU. You are wonderfully eloquent & your passion is empowering (same goes to all of those who have agreed with you).

You're welcome to come and have a cuddle from my horses any day - the ones I took in from a local rescue after they'd been retired from racing with a list of ailments longer than my arm. The effects of being used for racing on their bodies and mental health is truly devastating and evident every day despite them having a very comfortable lifestyle now.

Supporters of racing are no different to a gang of morons gathered around a pit betting on a dog fight.

Oh and he's on the road by right. But he's gorgeous so deal with it.

Oh FFS. Your attitude is what gets horse riders a bad, up their own arse, middle class, entitled reputation - wind your neck in.

I have six horses and whilst it is my god given right to ride on the road with them, I value mine, my horses' and other road users' lives far more than to ride out on most. Just because you can do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

PigeonFingers

FYI "rescuing" ex racehorses just contributes to the cycle of poorly bred racehorses.

I value mine, my horses' and other road users' lives far more than to ride out on most. Just because you can do something doesn't make it the right thing to do

The busiest roads I take him on are B roads, but only in order to get to bridleways. Otherwise, we are mainly on single track roads. I don't take any horse on the road unless I'm as confident as I can be that I can maintain control and that the horse is prepared for what it might meet.

Drivers should however realise that they are on the road by licence whereas vulnerable road users (pedestrians, cyclists, riders) are there by right. Thus you're not "in their way" you all share that way. It might seem like a sleight of tongue but actually, it matters that drivers don't just assume you're "in the way" and shouldn't be there.

Not sure why "middle class" is now apparently an insult. I'm polite and courteous on the road but your assumption of collective responsibility is a whole other discussion.

I wasn't inferring you were middle class, it's just an insult that comes with riding - I hunt so I get it all the time.

I just think in 2017 where there are as many morons driving as there are, it's increasingly not worth the risk on many occasions. I like in rural Lincolnshire and we have lots of quiet, straight back roads with large verges, but some riders ride in the most moronic places.

littlemissM92 FACT all racehorses are bred to be the best, the ones that have made it to the National have guts and detemination that cannot be bred into them! They may be the most well bred horse in the world but that doesn't mean they'll get to GN level!!

Persephone70 I hope you're a vegan and not a veggie - the cruelest farming industry is dairy farming so if you're still drinking milk and eating cheese you should stop, being a veggie isn't helping animal cruelty in the slightest!!