AIBU to beg you not to bet on the Grand National? It's animal abuse.

[hhorvath]

Please think about what you're condoning.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=grand+national+deaths&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhieOLlZXTAhUCOxoKHTDFDagQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=638

www.independent.co.uk/voices/grand-national-races-animal-cruelty-get-rid-of-dangerous-jump-a7672131.html

"It’s time for the Grand National again – that curious time of year when people who claim to like horses gather to exploit them, often hurting and killing them in the process.

Since 2000, 48 horses have died at the annual festival that the National is part of. Others have suffered horribly with broken backs, necks or legs, severed tendons, or heart attacks. This is the reality of British horse racing."

If you use this as entertainment, the blood of murdered horses is on your hands as well.

Would you bet on a race where human beings fell and broke their legs or necks and had to be shot? At least they would have consented. Horses cannot consent to this life.

Would you be "fine" with it as long as it hadn't happened since 2012, despite horses dying after the race from their injuries since then?

Please don't be dazzled by the so-called glamour of this bloodsport.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NPgB-uT_5bo

OP

Where you have gone wrong is the wording of your post, you do come over as very judgey. The odd "In my opinion" would not have gone a miss.

Then IMHO this thread would not have turned into the bun fight that it has.

Yes I did bet and won.

The fact that achieving 'straightness' is even a thing is terrifying. Making an animal, with its own mind (and who are we to judge that btw), do something at your behest that isn't essential for your survival is clearly questionable. We cannot know what a horse wants or likes, we just assume we do. We bang on about 'the circle of life' to make ourselves feel less guilty. Animals are not commodities just because we have power over them.

Yes it would be hard to stop using them now we have everything so ingrained but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop. Big changes are hard and every time there's some sort of progression in society, it takes time to figure it out over generations who can then look back and feel they've achieved something.

I'll be damned if I won't stand up and use my voice to represent those without one whenever I can, even though I'm not perfect, because that's not actually a requirement for speaking up. It's not an either-or between 100% who gives a feck about cruelty or 100% everyone's vegan. That's just an utterly lazy argument and had people not pushed back against exactly that sort of argument in the past most of us would be leading much less fulfilling lives.

And it's bloody obvious why people talk about it ON THE DAY of the race. Same reason those organise the race talk about it ON THE DAY. Good grief.

And the OP's way of engaging doesn't change the argument. Just goes to show how little of many people's ethics are actually based around things being right and wrong. People vote for the most beguiling argument, not the right one.

We bet and we won! If you don't agre thenfIr enough, however dot preach to the preacher!

I think all horse racing is pretty disgusting, the GN doubly so.

The reaction people have to it being pointed out they are deriving cash or entertainment for animal suffering is both predictable and depressing.

YANBU

I wonder which comes first, enjoying being a 'victim' of veganism.

So OP, no horses were hurt at the GN this year. I guess it's fine to have a little flutter in 2018 then?

FWIW, I would never condone animal cruelty but thinking a horse carrying 60kg on its back is cruel is not a sensible point to try and make.

Yanbu

Great posts PollytheDolly and Gabilan. Have learnt a lot.

As to the posters saying they won on the GN - what do you want, a medal? Who gives a fuck, really?

How much did you win, MsJamie?

I lost all 30 quid that I bet.

I hate horse racing and the Grand National in particular, because i do believe that it's cruel. That's my decision to make but starting a thread and instructing people what to do and forcing opinions on people is never going to do anything other than piss them off.

Carrying 60kg on their back is cruel?! I'd bet the vast majority of casual horse riders weigh a heck of a lot more than 60kg! Most jockeys weigh between 50 and 65kg and are skin and bone.

Horses are, for want of a better description, weight carrying animals but we deliberately minimise the amount of weight they carry in order to allow them to run faster.

Great posts PollytheDolly and Gabilan. Have learnt a lot.

Ah that's good. That's why I get a little bit passionate about it . Horses really are magnificent animals.

YANBU OP. Sad to see you've had such a hard time here. I stopped betting on the National a few years ago because of the cruelty of it.

I am not against horse racing because in my experience, the trainers and jockeys in the industry (who I know personally) adore horses and are incredibly knowledgeable about how to care for them. My knowledge is minimal, but I trust those involved, as they are the ones who have worked so passionately to get where they are.

It is sad that horses have died and perhaps these races should be looked at to be made safer, but saying the entire industry should be shut down due to the ethics of a small minority (who aren't necessarily educated on the topic) is frankly silly.

As for my own ethics, I believe that I live for myself and my family, hoping to provide a sustainable present and future. I am not vegan or vegetarian, nor do I avoid leather and animal by-products, as I believe that as a species, we are designed to utilise tools and animals alike for your survival. I don't agree at all with veganism, but I would never tell you that you are wrong - it works for you and you aren't harming your fellow man.

People are being disrespectful of you because you are preaching your way as the only way, and that simply doesn't work for everyone, as we are all different with highly varying values. Feel free to believe what you like, but please don't accuse me of being amoral for supporting the riding and racing of horses, and using animal products in my life.

Horses are, for want of a better description, weight carrying animals but we deliberately minimise the amount of weight they carry in order to allow them to run faster

Not sure why people are fixating on weight all of a sudden when it's hardly the main issue, but if you must, then consider this. Top weight in the GN is generally just shy of 12 stone, so around 75kg. Since few jockeys weigh that much the difference is made up with lead, which isn't the best thing for a horse to carry, as it's dead weight. However, at around 15% of a race horse's bodyweight it's acceptable, and lower than the 20% cap other governing bodies use.

Sure, it's less than many leisure horses carry but A there are concerns about what leisure horses carry too and B riding club riders don't gallop 4 miles + in 10 minutes at an average of 29 mph whilst negotiating some 30 large obstacles.

Horses have not evolved to carry weight. They are not weight carrying animals and the structure of their backs is such that actually, weight wise, you're better off on either a camel or a cow.

Saddles are designed to lift and distribute the rider's weight away from the spinosus processes and delicate nerve endings. If horses were so natural at weight carrying, would we need saddles designed like this? One way of assessing when horses were first ridden is to examine ancient skeletons for signs of back damage - certain types of back damage only come about through being ridden.

And then there's the myriad of back problems ridden horses develop, such as kissing spines.

Despite all this, it's not the weight carrying aspect of horse racing that bothers me, but if you must bring it up, at least be accurate about it.

Agreed, OP. I refused to join in with the work sweepstake on principle.

Thanks, Chloe. Horses are the most amazing animals that throughout human history have given us a huge amount. We eat them, milk them, bleed them, ride them and use them for motive power. They've died in battle for us. After all that, you'd think we'd give them a bit of a break. But no, instead we think we can risk their lives for entertainment, and that's OK because we love them really and look after them really well in the bits in between risking their lives.

And now, I'm off to see if my horse fancies a stroll in the sun with a few of his mates. I hope he does. He's generally very obliging.

What a lovely post gabilan.

I will be seeing my old girl today. Won't be doing anything except giving her an apple and some tlc.

They've died in battle for us.

Gosh, yes. This should never be forgotten x

I brought up the weight issue because someone upthread said expecting a horse to carry 60kg was cruel.

I'd argue that saddles are more for human comfort than the horses (as anyone who has ridden bareback will testify!), but I take your point that they also aid weight distribution and rider balance.

Don't know much about horses, not a vegetarian. What I don't understand is, why do we need Grand National and similar????

Race horses are very well cared for. They are properly trained and enjoy racing.
You can't force a horse to race. They will pull up, unseat their rider or just refuse.

why do we need Grand National and similar

We don't need them. In the same way we don't need any spectator sport.

The GN and similar exist, because they are a profitable industry. Horse racing in this country accounts for billions in revenue and foreign investment - just go to Newmarket for the day to see the investment the industry has.

As a (positive) side effect, the welfare of racing has improved with its profile. This is the fifth consecutive year there have been no fatalities in the GN and that is a positive step forwards.

Horse sport will always be controversial and you will never convince those opposed to it, that it isn't cruel, likewise you will never convince me that it is animal abuse.

Horses don't "need" to have a job, but I'd argue with anyone who told me some horses didn't enjoy their job. I have two ex NH horses, amongst the six horses I have at home. They retired from racing because they didn't like it - and a horse that doesn't enjoy the job will NEVER win races.

One is my "babysitter" he is a field ornament and he has a happy retirement doing bob all apart from serving as a friend for my ridden horses and an expensive lawn mower - he is very happy with his role.

My other I re trained as a hunter for me. He loves his job, his little ears prick up when he sees hounds and he knows when the horsebox comes out of the shed he is going to do something fun and exciting.

Many racehorses enjoy their careers - don't think they're all subjected to a life of misery because they aren't.

Horses don't "need" to have a job, but I'd argue with anyone who told me some horses didn't enjoy their job.

Agree with that. Some horses can't be retired. The go downhill both mentally and physically very quickly. My horse enjoyed her "work" (that's a huge overstatement in our case) but I made it enjoyable for her. But she loves being a paddock potato. I do still practise my horsemanship with her but it's very sedate. Like her lol.

Again, we can never know what animals do and don't enjoy because for most they've never known a life without being controlled by humans. It's all just assumptions to make people feel better.