AIBU to beg you not to bet on the Grand National? It's animal abuse.

[hhorvath]

Please think about what you're condoning.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=grand+national+deaths&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhieOLlZXTAhUCOxoKHTDFDagQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=638

www.independent.co.uk/voices/grand-national-races-animal-cruelty-get-rid-of-dangerous-jump-a7672131.html

"It’s time for the Grand National again – that curious time of year when people who claim to like horses gather to exploit them, often hurting and killing them in the process.

Since 2000, 48 horses have died at the annual festival that the National is part of. Others have suffered horribly with broken backs, necks or legs, severed tendons, or heart attacks. This is the reality of British horse racing."

If you use this as entertainment, the blood of murdered horses is on your hands as well.

Would you bet on a race where human beings fell and broke their legs or necks and had to be shot? At least they would have consented. Horses cannot consent to this life.

Would you be "fine" with it as long as it hadn't happened since 2012, despite horses dying after the race from their injuries since then?

Please don't be dazzled by the so-called glamour of this bloodsport.

Kanewreck oh please, don't be so pedantic. As vegans we do the best we can with what we have. Are you really saying "well if you are happy to accept mainstream medicine then you should be happy to accept animal torture and abuse"? You know full well that comment was ridiculous but are trying to get a rise from people

*I think the debate comes up most often around this time of year because it's when people who otherwise show no interest in racing become interested. It's seen as the best time to involve them and get them to think about the cruelty involved in racing (and other equine sports).

I've been around horses for 40 years. I've worked with them full time and I have BHS qualifications. I've worked with Arab stallions, trained police horses, had training with an FBHS, competed in dressage competitions and support equine charities. And yet if and when I mention my dislike of racing the response I get is "you don't know about horses". When I explain that I do, this is modified to "you don't know about racing". Yes I do. I've been involved with ex racehorses for the last 10 years.

IMO the deaths in the Grand National are the tip of the iceberg. The bit I find horrific is the excessive breeding of thoroughbreds and the wastage of those that don't make it on the course. But the deaths on the course still sicken me.

Put it this way, a friend of mine used to drive the meat wagon at point to points. That's what this sport is. There's a meat wagon at every meet, following the horses around to pick up the dead.

Sure, my horse could (and does) hurt himself playing in the field. I don't think of that as a reason to run him into the ground. Those who say you cannot force a horse to do something - I think you fundamentally misunderstand both horses and the nature of powe*r

God, thank you.

Whatever peoples' views, is it really necessary to tell someone to f@ck off?

Kanewreck what a stupid thing to say. Being vegan is about avoiding animal products as far as humanly possible. If you need medicine to keep you alive, obviously that will unfortunately have been tested on animals at some point. But I think killing yourself to remain vegan is a bit much.

As vegans we do the best we can with what we have

Yes, that really. I'm fishitarian. It's a compromise, and I know it. I try to make sure that any animal products I do consume are sourced as carefully and ethically as possible. And yes, I use modern medicine. Again, I know full well what it's based on. But if I'm ill, I'll take something that may well have been tested on animals in order to get better.

I still criticise horse racing though. I need to eat and I pretty much need modern medicine. I don't need to watch a horse being run until it drops, as Many Clouds did recently.

As for horses enjoying it? Horses have evolved over millions of years to be co-operative herd animals. Over the last 6000 years or so we've taken the ones most inclined to co-operate with us and bred from them. In the case of the thoroughbred, over the last 300 years we've taken those with the strongest flight instinct and selectively bred from them. So we have an animal that runs to escape predators. It will also run for enjoyment, but that's practice for running from predators.

So we have a cooperative animal with a strong flight instinct and we've coerced it into galloping. Horses do understand consequences but not in the way that humans do so they don't understand "if you run in this race, you have a high chance of breaking your neck". They just have their willingness to please, and their need to run. So they run. But don't kid yourselves that they are fully cognisant participants in a dangerous sport.

As for horses enjoying it? Horses have evolved over millions of years to be co-operative herd animals. Over the last 6000 years or so we've taken the ones most inclined to co-operate with us and bred from them. In the case of the thoroughbred, over the last 300 years we've taken those with the strongest flight instinct and selectively bred from them. So we have an animal that runs to escape predators. It will also run for enjoyment, but that's practice for running from predators.*

Thoroughbreds are a man made breed. They have not envolved over millions of years. Bred finer and finer for a purpose to go faster and faster. They will break and they do.

I think the GN should be run with shires and cobs with 2' fences at most (most of them would just run them ). Far more enjoyable to watch.

Run through them. Shite phone!

Op, as someone with lots of experience in racing and owning horses I can tell you are uneducated about the sport and know nothing about horses, even though you claim to.
why don't you take a look at horse sports in general. Cross country riding has similar type fences to the grand national, horrific injuries can happen there too, resulting in death.
Showjumping accidents happen all the time...if a horse breaks a neck or a leg then they need to be destroyed. No different to racehorses.

The grand national has lots of media attention and uneducated arm chair jockeys come out of the wood work.
These animals are not abused! The care they receive at home is to a very high standard. Owners pay good money for their expensive animals to have the top class care so they can perform at their best.
If an animal refuses to race, it doesn't run.
If a jockey suspects something is a miss he pulls it up.
The whip is cushioned and the jockey is trained to hit the horse on a certain part of their body, so they aren't hitting bony parts and it doesn't hurt the horse, its actually flicked in front of them to make them run faster at the correct point in the race. Its also a very important aid to keep the horse straight, which prevents horses veering all over the track and into other horses.
Horses fall. It's shit. But they fall in any sport involving obsticles and frankly if a horse breaks a neck or leg its game over. Pelvic fractures Can be overcome.
Your comment about banning the industry just proves you know nothing. Most of these racehorses would be slaughtered with nowhere to go.
Don't sit and preach about something you know nothing about because its heavily in the media and you don't agree with it.

I've seen Clydesdales race, Polly. That's fun. It's all in slow-mo. You can hear and feel them coming before you see them. Also, you know a mature Clydesdale will tell a jockey it's not effing well going to gallop any more because it wants to eat grass, well before a 2 year old thoroughbred will.

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I think horse racing can be cruel and obviously deadly for some horses. I used to love watching and betting on the GN but over time I have felt more and more uncomfortable with the number or horses dying and the overuse of whips.

I am also extremely uncomfortable with dog shows where dogs have been misbred (?) resulting in horrible and painful health conditions.

I think the idea that someone (like the OP) can't complain about something unless she lives a perfectly virtuous life is ridiculous. Some of the posters on this thread should be ashamed of themselves for their abusive language.

I support you OP but I have to admit to eating chicken (free range ).

jockey is trained to hit the horse

I stopped reading there I'm afraid.

Lemondropcake- if the whip "doesn't hurt" why are there rules about how much a jockey can whip a horse

There are rules about how often a jockey can strike a horse because it comes down to perception. If you've ever seen a racing whip up close you will see that they are totally different to the whips that an "every day rider" would carry. They're highly cushioned and extremely flexible, so it's not possible to put as much force behind them. Watch slow motion replays of races and you'll see the whips bending in the air as the jockeys wave them.

These animals are not abused! The care they receive at home is to a very high standard. Owners pay good money for their expensive animals to have the top class care so they can perform at their best

This is an argument that comes up quite frequently in debates over equestrian sports. Generally someone will point out that for e.g. hauling on a double bridle until a dressage horse's tongue goes blue is cruel. The response is then "but it's so well cared for. Look at this really thin RSPCA case, why aren't you worried about that".

It's as if, because a horse is in many ways physically well cared for much of the time, people cannot grasp that there are other ways to be cruel to it. My horse gets turned out every day with his field buddies. He has access to clean water at all times. He has a scientifically balanced diet. He has regular physio, dental and veterinary checks. His tack is expertly fitted and if in doubt about any aspect of his care I will call in expert advice. I also make sure I keep myself fit and have regular physio so that when I ride him, I'm not hurting him or burdening him.

If I then decided that every day for half an hour he should jump six foot fences regardless of whether he wanted to or not, and that I would hit him until he did, that would still be cruel. All the expert care the rest of the time, does not justify that one half hour of shittiness.

As for event horses, Lemondrop I'm not absolutely sure about them either. What I would say though is that they're going over the fences singly, rather than in a massed group, so they get more time to think about it. You don't get the kind of falls you get in racing in which one horse brings down another. Plus eventing has also cleaned up its act a lot in terms of restricting when horses can compete at higher levels and in safety of fences (frangible pins, jumping in and out of water etc)

Lemondropcake- if the whip "doesn't hurt" why are there rules about how much a jockey can whip a horse 

Lady I agree.

A horse can feel a fucking fly land on its back. Come on! If a horse doesn't move off your leg then it's numb to your leg. That's YOUR doing, not theirs.

Less is more. I can get my horse my move with just intent. I don't do anything. Maybe raise my head or look at a part of her body, for example her hindquarters, then she moves. Why is that?

Horses are far, far more sensitive than people allow themselves to believe. Because is bloody convenient for them to think otherwise.

There are rules about how often a jockey can strike a horse because it comes down to perception. If you've ever seen a racing whip up close you will see that they are totally different to the whips that an "every day rider" would carry. They're highly cushioned and extremely flexible, so it's not possible to put as much force behind them. Watch slow motion replays of races and you'll see the whips bending in the air as the jockeys wave them.

They should have taken off them. See how much those horses are really willing to run as they love it so much.

Polly British classical riding is different from horse racing.
As I said about whips been a safety aid to keep horses straight, they are essential. There are rules and restrictions because if there wasn't then there would be a problem with jockeys hitting more than neccessary.

People use whips in every day riding or if the horse Is napping. Jockeys use it to signal when to up the pace, they mainly flick it in front of them which creates a sound to spur them on. The cushioned whip is hit on the hind quarters. Never, are there any marks on the horse from whipping after a race. If there really was an issue the rspca would be all over it.
The grand national comes one day a year and no-one bloody questions riders that whip their horses with schooling whips or wears spurs needlessly. In every horse sport there are things people aren't comfortable with. Aids and gadgets, whipping, falling....get over it because it will still happen. We still love our horses, we still tell people who moan about the sport to shut up, we still do it.

So if you agree with it or not I suppose we should all agree to disagree and get on with it.

This from Epona is interesting on how apparently well cared for horses can still be mistreated.

There's also this which is about the use of whips in Australian horse racing. The whips they use are similarly padded. The author makes the point that as prey animals, horses will hide their pain response.

PollytheDolly Sat 08-Apr-17 22:36:27
Lemondropcake- if the whip "doesn't hurt" why are there rules about how much a jockey can whip a horse 

Lady I agree.

A horse can feel a fucking fly land on its back. Come on! If a horse doesn't move off your leg then it's numb to your leg. That's YOUR doing, not theirs.

Less is more. I can get my horse my move with just intent. I don't do anything. Maybe raise my head or look at a part of her body, for example her hindquarters, then she moves. Why is that?

Horses are far, far more sensitive than people allow themselves to believe. Because is bloody convenient for them to think otherwise.

Sorry Polly but you can't have horseriders on the one hand objecting to the GN and in another breath claim it can feel a **in fly land on ti's back. You're a horsewoman so you say - you absolutely cannot put a valid argument against the GN.

The author makes the point that as prey animals, horses will hide their pain response.

Yes they do. We are predators, as are dogs, tigers etc etc.

Horses are prey animals and should be treated as such. The fact they even let a predator on its back is tantamount to want incredible creatures horses are.

And still they are abused.

yes they enforce rules on whipping but obviously not very strict as one years national winner was bleeding at the finish line so I am pretty sure to break a horses thick skin it must of hurt. Plus depends on the training a horse may be scared of the whip even if it's not used to strike them. They are intelligent sensitive animals I only have to say certain words and my horse knows she's in trouble

You're a horsewoman so you say - you absolutely cannot put a valid argument against the GN.

I think I have put a valid argument. Which bit did you miss?

A horse can feel a fly on its back. I was referring to their sensitivity. A whip is completely unnecessary (and I've used one in the past) they allow humans on their backs and we should respect that.

They are intelligent sensitive animals I only have to say certain words and my horse knows she's in trouble

And that's all you need. You got the going yet. That works on mine

As I said about whips been a safety aid to keep horses straight, they are essential.

Absolutely, wholeheartedly disagree. Not wanting a fight, truly. I haven't used a whip for years and I never will. You really can get straightness and beautiful lines without.

My mentor is Buck Brannaman. His mentor was Hunt and Dorrance.

My horse doesn't really get into trouble, bless him. He has however trained me quite well, particularly when it comes to things like carrots.