Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

My kids have 100% attendance otherwise

You mean your children have 100% attendance apart from the time they are not in school?

I think you'll find that definition applies to every child

It's not always about going to fucking Disneyland.

Our last holiday was camping in Cornwall. We could only afford it because of inset days on the last week of the holiday meant it was cheaper as it was classed as term time.

This is still separating the haves and have nots. Those that are rich enough will take their holiday to "insert expensive hot place abroad" and not give a damn about the fine. Those who can't even afford to camp in the holidays will have to go without a holiday at all because they could no way afford a fine.

But that's ok, holidays are not a right. Maybe low paid workers shouldn't even get time off? Just keep working till you drop, I'm pretty sure the government would love that actually.

How about he didn't pay the fine because he believes this legislation is wrong and unfair and wanted to make a stand?

A lot depends on their age I think. Fining a parent of a 4 or 5 year old for them missing a week is just ridiculous. At that age the work can be caught up at home in a few days. A 15 or 16 year old, that's a different kettle of fish.

Morphene - I wasn't suggesting that all 30 kids will be at the same academic level if term time holidays weren't taken. I have a DC at school so am very aware that this is not the case.

My point was that teachers do actually teach new things to children eg fractions, telling the time etc etc. If several children are absent for example during the initial detailed introduction of fractions, it must be hard for the teacher to ensure that they all catch up. As this could potentially be all 30 children missing vital lessons during the course of the year, I can see how this would be a problem.

No, but it might just draw attention to the fact that a vulnerable child is being taken out of school. It makes it more visable surely?

Yes, that was my point - and I did only say "a wee bit" but in the cases of vulnerable girls, surely anything that can help is valuable?

1bighappy I'm a teacher and missing a big family destination wedding because I cannot get time off work. I had to have unpaid leave when my Dbro got married 8,000 miles away. That was doable because I missed two Inset days and I made the training time up on my return. If I were in your shoes I'd just take your Dd's and have an amazing time. Yes schooling is important but so are big family occasions

Er, teachers taking time off is totally different! It's like Father Christmas saying that he can't work Christmas Eve.

I must say I would be if my dc's teacher was away from school at a "destination wedding".

there's also a massive problem with a fine for doing this, which is that people will just pay it.

On the lunchtime news the reporter said that you would now also be committing a criminal offence so would receive a criminal record as well as being fined.

Excellent points from many PPs that so many people who say 'why not' think only of their own interests and not how it disrupts things for the teacher and therefore the whole class.

Notthemessiah - you're entitled to voice your view but it's offensive to insult those who don't share it. Following the rules is not a bad thing, you sign up to those rules when you enroll your child in a school and the 'rights' to anything always, and need to, come with responsibilities and being part of a group and thinking of others not just yourself is good thing to foster in the children that are the adults of tomorrow.

I much rather have that message given out than the ridiculousness coming from Jon Platt - he's just read a statement saying, with an incredulous look on his face, that the ruling means that 'attending regularly' means 'attending every day you are told too' well, d'uh!! Did anyone think it didn't mean that?

We live in Wales and our LAs stance is this:
Up to 10 days holiday a year will be authorised IF attendance in the previous 12 months is over 95% and the headteacher has final say so eg if holiday is over national test week etc they will refuse.
Attendance figure includes sickness which although counts as authorised still detracts from attendance
Fines are if you have more 10 or more sessions (1/2 a day) unauthorised absences in a term.

We are taking the kids out of school after May half term for 3 days as flying mid week to midweek halves the total cost of our holiday.
We haven't been abroad for 10 years and normally do a couple of days camping so this holiday is a big deal for us.
I know for a fact that missing 3 days of school will have little impact on thier overall school learning. DS1 had a month off school following emergency surgery and he is still miles and miles ahead. DD is one of the youngest in her year yet still achieving higher than they expect for her year group.
DS2 is in year 1 and average but he is still at the stage where he hisblearning to read/simple maths etc, all of which we are capable of helping catch up with.

And to be honest we need this holiday as a family, me and dH have had marriage trouble last year, plus several close family bereavements/sucides over the past few of years so we could do with a break in the sun where we don't have to cook on a camp stove and walk miles to the toilet. Us having fun as a family and getting close again will be more beneficial in the long run, if we split up that will cause much more harm to the kids learning ability than missing a couple of days of school!!!

there was no ban on this when I was a child, you could take 2 weeks a year in school time. My family had to due to my father's business commitments and I went every year in early May for 2 weeks except immediately before O and A levels ( when I stayed with a friend of theirs) Most of my friends also had 2 weeks. We all passed our exams, went to uni and got good jobs. You just had to commit to catching up when you got back, which never seemed too much trouble.

i don't agree with this judgement.

Firstly everyone talks about exceptions but where do you stop? the forces, doctors, farmers, anyone who works in tourism, anyone like me who has to do their job doing school holidays, ambulance, fire control, lifeguard etc. but then what about the people who work in small businesses where only one person can be away at a time. you might think that is OK unless of course you are the person who gets allocated NO weeks during the main school summer holidays.

Secondly I do think he had every right to challenge this in court. the only way you get clarity is through case law and I support his right to do this. it isn't about him being special. its about someone having the balls (and the money unfortunately) to challenge things they don't believe in.

Thirdly this could be managed in a completely different way by giving the responsibility to heads to decide. there should be a maximum amount of time but each head, knowing the child and the family, can decide. but unfortunately despite being paid a really good salary a lot of heads wont do this. they worry about the conflict. well lots of us have worked with conflict and you just man up and deal with it because your salary reflects this.

Finally, its been delayed due to the ruling but now stand back everyone and watch prices in school holidays absolutely rocket. Supply and demand if you restrict the demand to only a few weeks then there will be a surfeit of holidays outside school holidays and very few in.

who is the winner in all of this? Why, all those parents with kids in private education who don't have to abide by this rule and of course that is about 90% of the politicians who voted this in.

if you want to talk about class divide Corbyn, then here it is mate staring you in the face. only those with money will be able to afford to go on holiday either because they can pay the fines or because they can afford the school holiday prices.

the rest of us oiks either never get a holiday now with their kids because we cannot, ever, go in school holidays or its a wet weekend in a tent somewhere.

This has nothing to do with education. this has nothing to do with raising standards. Underlying absence from persistent abseentees has not shifted one iota and it never will. this is what needs tackling, working intensively with those families whose kids regularly miss a day a week. not the "quick wins" of cutting holidays in term time where you see the absentee figures reduce but no real change to the life chances of the kids that really need it.

Notthemessiah you have every right to decide how your child is best educated. But if you want to use state (or even private) school provision, then you need to follow their rules.

Or, if you can get enough eople to agree with you, you can exercise your democratic muscle and force a change in public policy.

ohforfoxsake.

Because 'private' education means what it says. You're not expecting the government to educate your children so their oversight is limited to their welfare.

mousymary but you say you've taken your kids out of school for "sunny days" and "duvet days" and they've missed their 5 hours of learning each time. So why would you care if the teacher was off? Maybe they wanted a sunny day or a duvet day?

Sorry Flyawaypeter I was agreeing with you. Apologies if it didn't come across.

Maybe we should allow everyone to take 2 weeks off in term time then. Including teachers. After all, they have families too.

Do I really need to say why a teacher being off school (for holiday) is different from a pupil being away?

Fining a parent of a 4 or 5 year old for them missing a week is just ridiculous.

Education Welfate in our LA don't get involved if the child is under 5, i.e. not yet statutory school age.

I take my kids on holiday during term time & will continue to do so.
Although I don't think the fines apply in Scotland anyway.
We have family abroad, I work in essential services & I will take holidays that suit my family.

I asked for authorised absence for one day and was declined by one school, and the other agreed.

The reason was that I had some children off school due to the teachers strike. I wanted to take the others out to go and support the striking teachers.

Very much depends on how 'exceptional' is perceived.

(I didn't take them out in the end).

School were fine because I Missed two inset days. I completed the training I missed in my own time on line. I have no intention of taking time off when I have classes, but it did mean I could attend my brother's wedding. Give and take can go along way. That goes for pupils with good attendance and taking holidays at tactical times of the year such as the end of term can really benefit families.

mousymary yes you do. Are school holidays less expensive for teachers somehow? Does a couple of weeks missed teaching matter or not?

Holidays are a luxury in a rich democratic country, not a human right 🤔

mousymary well if your value on education is such that you feel your kids can take off days to enjoy the sun and have a sleep then why would you care if their teacher was off for the same reason.