Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

I think it is unfair to use this as an argument against term time holidays. As a group they under perform because they are constantly moving schools,have little choice re school,have to cope with moving house and parents being away.

The holidays bring benefits just as they bring benefits to all children with otherwise good school attendance.

And not every comment is from a teacher, as you can see from the ones where they talk about how much money they're saving by taking their family abroad during term-time.

Not everyone has spent their whole career teaching. I had a different career before teaching.

It doesn't add work. I used to just plough on regardless in just the same way you allow for kids out on interventions and Tworking at different levels.I found the kids in and out for regular music lessons and sporting fixtures far more disruptive than a one off holiday.

I probably shouldn't post on here late at night - it's a bit like sending texts - not always as clear as they should be. Have read a lot of posts but not all.
Was only trying to put another perspective on the debate as a governor.
As a parent I have 4dc, work full time as does dh. We think that taking children out of school in term time sends the wrong message to them about how we value their education. If that means we don't get a holiday then that's just the way it is. We get time off together and have fun and that's important to us.
The whole issue is a minefield.

The holidays bring benefits just as they bring benefits to all children with otherwise good school attendance.

^^This. If there was any decent evidence that term time holidays were bad for children I may be open to reconsidering all the evidence I've seen to the contrary over the years as a primary teacher.

We think that taking children out of school in term time sends the wrong message to them about how we value their education. If that means we don't get a holiday then that's just the way it is.

And that's your values and it is your prerogative to stick to those values. I have a broader view of education and try to encourage my children to see education as a lifelong process (e.g. reading the newspaper, travelling etc) not just something that happens at school.

I cannot tell you how much I admire your patience and tenancity on this thread jellyfrizz and mummymeister andbagree with all your posts.

I think that people who stick rigidly to the holidays are not a right or necessity party line are often people who probably don't like or value traveling and being away from home anyway and that's fine. But that is your approach to life and not one that should be forced onto others who do value travel and life experiences out of their own sphere. That is what this legislation does. It forces and prevents people from following their natural inclination to travel and introduce their children to it by criminalising it and making it unaffordable. Now of course there will be the sneery two weeks at Disney or in Majorca isn't travel responses. I disagree with that. I've done those trips and many others and I believe that we got as much out of them as when we went to see the Grand Mosque in Abu Dhabi or ate Street Food at markets in Bangkok.

I absolutely agree and my eldest is planning his gap year whilst studying for his a levels. Education is all around us and they are learning from the minute they are born. Life experiences are so important - we are our child's greatest educators and for us that includes respect for the system of formal education and society in general and dare I say it the teaching staff.

we are our child's greatest educators and for us that includes respect for the system of formal education and society in general and dare I say it the teaching staff.

I believe it is possible to have respect for a system while not being draconian about attendance.

I'm a teacher and do not see it as a sign of disrespect that people take time off for things that they see as important for their children.

think that people who stick rigidly to the holidays are not a right or necessity party line are often people who probably don't like or value traveling
Thry arent a right. Time off work is an employment right. Going away on holidays when you like isnt.
There are 13 weeks of the year that arent in term time.
When i was a kid wr didnt have the money for big holidays ajd would be lucky if we went to butlins or a holiday chalet.We did stuff locally with mam and dad. We went to the beach etc. It was still a break with family.
Im a teacher. DH isnt. If he cant get his holidays to match mine then we just have to do a long weekend camping somewhere. Im not going yo cry to my headteacher that its unfair that i cant exercise my right to a foreign holiday.
Friends of mine are teachers. Their children attend achools in a different county so half terms and easters etc are different, guess what? They just get on with it.

The thing with people taking term time holidays is that schools function because not everyone does it.
If everyone decided 'my situation/holiday/child is more important than anything else' then you'd have weeks where half the class is out. Then instead of moving the class forward, teachers spend their time thinking "i want to do this topic, but charlie isnt here this week, amy and simon were away whenwe studied X so need catchuo there, we're doing project work in groups but daniel and marcus are absent in a week's time' etc.

The odd week granted by the head at their discretion wont be the end of the world but a blanket 'take your kids out whenever you like' is just silly.

I haven't read the whole thread (36 pages!) and my points have probably been made before. As a teacher, I don't mind if kids go away on holiday. But it annoys me when I am expected to work harder (set work before they go, which rarely gets done, or mark the sodding work when they get back, admittedly this has never happened!). Also, the sense of entitlement that everyone is entitled to a holiday and the expectation that teachers make up the shortfall in the little darling's education because of said holiday is very irritating.

I had one kid get moved down a set between year 9 and 10 and the mother and child were very put out. Anyway, a couple of months passed and little johnny pipes up in one lesson "I missed this last year because I was skiing." Guess what came up in the yearly exam used for setting?

The thing with people taking term time holidays is that schools function because not everyone does it.
If everyone decided 'my situation/holiday/child is more important than anything else' then you'd have weeks where half the class is out.

This didn't happen before fines were introduced. Most parents care greatly about their children's education.

Did you all see that his ex had taken the daughter out already that year ? Made me hoot.

Kept that quiet didn't he? Odious man

I have been involved in this case. And the more cynical of my colleagues suggested that the whole thing is nothing to do with holidays. More with right wing activism. And funded thus.

This didn't happen before fines were introduced. Most parents care greatly about their children's education.
Thats my point.
The system of heads using discretion and judgement worked just fine. And that system works BECAUSE most people dont do it (as you said).

If everyone did, it would be chaos. Thats the problem with people saying that term time holidays are a right etc, it only doesnt have a massive impact on the class/school because most people dont pull their kids out of school.

Ive got a gcse student who's going to miss 2 weeks AFTER the easte break this year. That's most of a topic for their exam that I wont recap until y11.
If 25% of the class did that and had random fortnights off it would chaos to manage. And then no doubt, id get the phonecalls asking what intervention I'M doing to make up for the fact that THEY took THEIR chold out of school in exam years.

And the more cynical of my colleagues suggested that the whole thing is nothing to do with holidays. More with right wing activism. And funded thus.

Well, of course it's got nothing to do with holidays. Holidays are a tiny % of overall absence - 0.4% for the last school year (and that included authorised holidays) and there is no evidence that shows holidays are detrimental to educational achievement or anyone's else's educational achievement or teachers' workloads.

I'm interested in the right wing activism theory - how so?

If everyone did, it would be chaos. Thats the problem with people saying that term time holidays are a right etc, it only doesnt have a massive impact on the class/school because most people dont pull their kids out of school.

But why would all people suddenly start taking their children out even if you said term time holiday is a right? They didn't before fining, why would they start?

Ive got a gcse student who's going to miss 2 weeks AFTER the easte break this year. That's most of a topic for their exam that I wont recap until y11.

Yeah, I agree taking your children out in exam years is just stupid. Perhaps people should have to sign a piece of paper saying something like 'I accept that by taking my child out of school at this time he/she will most likely miss important topics and accept that this may be detrimental to their final result'.

As a teacher ... it annoys me when I am expected to work harder (set work before they go, which rarely gets done, or mark the sodding work when they get back, admittedly this has never happened!)

On the same subject - and looking on the bright side - let's just be grateful there's not been much mention on the thread of "we always ask for work for the kids to take on our term time holiday"

Probably because there's not a hope in hell of it being done ...

Puzzledandpissedoff
I expect my students to borrow a friends/classmates book and copy up the work.
If they have any questions, I'll happily spend a few mins at break/lunch answering them but I dont do 1-1 catchup lessons.
jellyfrizz I dont think they would just start taking their kids out. I do think people who argue theres little/no impact on taking children out of school other than exceptional circumstances need to be aware that the lack of disruption to schools is BECAUSE other people dont do the same thing as them.

I do think people who argue theres little/no impact on taking children out of school other than exceptional circumstances need to be aware that the lack of disruption to schools is BECAUSE other people dont do the same thing as them.

Aah, I get what you mean now but even if every child had a week off a year for a holiday (unlikely) that wouldn't even be one child out of the class every week (30 children, 39 weeks school). Obviously people taking loads of time off for holidays would have an impact.

I just don't think that fines answer the real problems of persistent absenteeism. They just fudge the numbers slightly with children of 'obedient' parents missing out on potentially beneficial holidays.

Maybe someone will come on and say that persistent absenteeism has reduced slightly since fines were introduced (gone up again now that below 90% is classed as persistent absenteeism) but I think that is more to do with the work done by schools and EWOs to engage parents and support them in getting their children to school.

Persistent absenteeism is a massive issue. Anecdotally, if i look over the years the people keen to take their kids off each year for holidays were also the ones who'd let them stay off for a sniffle.

Had one student who would be off every last day of term and odd fridays. No reason just 'poorly' but kids ij school would get texts from the child arranging to go out that evening and he was bragging about his x box day.
Had one where home would call saying he has sickness (both ends) but send him back after 1 day! Student said he was off because he was tired from the weekend.

Both those parents were big on term time holidays. The latter liked to ring and complain if he didnt do well in tests because 'its not his fault'.

Attendance is often an ethos thing I find.
Diligent kids and supportive parents tend to be in regularly, catchup work if theyve been unwell and avoid taking term gime holidays unless theres a big reason (and when thry get back they copy all the notes up no bother).

@sniggy01 so if I said to your head "sorry I need to book a holiday in term time because in the school holidays I am busy running Easter bunny events for everyone else to attend with their kids" what response do you think I'd get??
Can't imagine they'd be that agreeable...

@jakeyboy1
Don't really understand what you are getting at. The head would just laugh and I'd be inclined to say what a lovely event for you to attend with your family. No holday granted as if this is your sole employment then it will only take up 3 days of the year. You need to try a lot harder than this.
My favourite request was for a day off to attend a World Cup rugby match where the parent and child had listed all the mathematical opportunities during a rugby match - we allowed that of course.

@sniggy01 as I said in my earlier post holidays are busiest time for me. No not 3 days, every day of every holiday. Sometimes the easter bunny, sometimes Pippa pig, all manner of things but entertaining other people's kids in hols. It pays my mortgage and that's when the work is but my point was I doubt a head would see that as a reason as somehow not "high brow" enough.

@sniggy01 err no can't attend as a family I'm running the event for a few thousand people! If I could attend with my family I'd be off on holiday somewhere thanks.