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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

913 replies

Mulledwine1 · 06/04/2017 10:28

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

OP posts:
Crunchymum · 06/04/2017 13:04

I was absolutely raging about this.

Can someone explain to me why he didn't pay the fine? £120 still surely saved the family a lot of money?

If you are going to flout the rules, the bare the consequences.

PerspicaciaTick · 06/04/2017 13:05

blind eye - sorry.

windypolar · 06/04/2017 13:06

I'm glad all the sheep welcoming this judgement have been successfully brainwashed into agreeing that the state has more of a say in how your children are raised than you do.

I'm one of the 'sheep' Grin but I'm also a home educator and ex secondary teacher. I wouldn't say I welcomed it, exactly (see previous comments), however, but I can see why this was a sensible ruling.

elkegel · 06/04/2017 13:06

In fact ds's piano exam was declared unauthorised!

That's ridiculous. See, I'm worried now that schools will react disproportionately and DD's absence will not now be authorised.

2rebecca · 06/04/2017 13:06

This was the only sensible decision. Having parents take their kids on random holidays through the year when they feel like it is mad. Taking your kid to Disneyland on holiday is never about parents coosing what is "best" for their child, just saving some money on an already expensive overpriced holiday

watfordmummy · 06/04/2017 13:07

Good

Crunchymum · 06/04/2017 13:07

Sorry meant to say that I don't think term time holidays are a right or something kids should be entitled too.

What I mean is once the parents decided to go against the rules, they should have paid the fine. Who the fuck do they think they are?

cathf · 06/04/2017 13:08

I don't think there should be any exceptions or any discretion allowed, tbh, as as soon as this is allowed, people start to take liberties.
Excuses I have heard include a three children missing a fortnights schooling because one of them has Asperger's, and is stressed by the crowds at Disneyland during the school holidays (maybe don't go to Disneyland if your don't like crowds??) and a mum who has a cupcake business who can't go away in the summer because it's her busy time.

CauliflowerSqueeze · 06/04/2017 13:09

Crunchy - he didn't pay the fine because he is one of life's arses who thinks he can do as he please and then find a lawyer to fight his corner. Hope that helps.

TinfoilHattie · 06/04/2017 13:11

Can someone explain to me why he didn't pay the fine?

Because he's a special snowflake who doesn't think rules apply to him and his daughter. Coupled with possibly a desire to be famous / market himself as the next Crusader for Justice or Martin Lewis.

Dannythechampion · 06/04/2017 13:12

"I'm glad all the sheep welcoming this judgement have been successfully brainwashed into agreeing that the state has more of a say in how your children are raised than you do."

Only if you want the state to educate your child, its about working in partnership for what works for everyone.

You don't have to have your child educated by the state and therefore the state has far less say in educating your child.

Calling people sheep when you don't get that, rather shows your lack of understanding of the situation.

grannytomine · 06/04/2017 13:14

*granny if you bothered to read more than 3 words of my response you'd see that I agreed that there were some professions, including the forces, that should be exempted. However, these cover only a small fraction of the employers who currently feel free to put staff on restrictive leave schedules because it suits them.

And there is no need for any business, even a water company or the fire brigade to allow all staff to take 2 weeks off simultaneously. Most businesses require leave to be booked over school holidays to ensure that all who want it get a share (and if they don't they get a week at Easter or half term*

No need to be rude, I did read all of your post. My point is that for some schools/classes more than 50% of the kids would be "exceptional" so how is that exceptional.

In my grandchildren's school off hand I can think of children with parents who are firemen, soldiers, police officers, nurses, doctors, carers (either in care homes or home care) before we even get to the people who work in the hospitality industry, quite a few parents with small hotels/B&Bs let alone the ones who work in bigger organisations. It isn't a small fraction, it is an awful lot of parents and as to all parents being able to spread their time off over the holidays for a six week summer holiday you could still have one third of you staff wanting to take time off and that just isn't workable for most employers. You might see it as employers being unreasonable but they have business considerations if you want the business to keep going.

PerspicaciaTick · 06/04/2017 13:14

Chrunchymum, because that is how the English legal system works if you think a rule is a bad one or is unclear. This is why we repeatedly have people with terminal diagnoses going to court seeking clarification on euthanasia and the role of friends and family. Because the only way to get that clarification from the courts is to bring a case.
Jon Platt may be pig headed, wrong and faintly ridiculous - but he has forced the courts to clarify what it means to attend school regularly.

grannytomine · 06/04/2017 13:14

I forgot the farmers.

elkegel · 06/04/2017 13:15

According to the judgment, if attendance is regular according to school rules (most say 95%) then you shouldn't be fined.

The attendance in the case was only 90%.

prh47bridge · 06/04/2017 13:16

To repost what I said about this in the education forum...

I am not surprised. It seemed clear from the relevant legislation that parliament intended "regularly" in section 444(1) of the Education Act 1996 to mean "in accordance with the rules" and not as the lower courts interpreted it. The Supreme Court also noted that the interpretation of the lower courts meant that parents would have no idea whether or not they were committing an offence when taking their child out of school for a day, contrary to the normal practice of the courts that laws imposing criminal liability must be construed strictly to avoid any doubt.

I note also that the Supreme Court refers to the 7 day holiday taken by the father as missing 14 attendances. The 5 day holiday taken by the mother two months previously (for which she did pay the fine) is described as missing 10 attendances. They use a similar approach elsewhere in the judgement, at times referring to each half day missed as an absence. This confirms that each half day missed is a separate absence and parents can be fined accordingly, although I don't know of any LA that actually does so. Most seem to impose a single £60 fine per parent per period of absence.

Personally I agree with the decision. You don't have to send your child to a state school. You can home educate or, if you can afford it, use a private school. But if you use state schools you must follow the rules. You cannot pick and choose which rules to accept. That is not being sheep, as someone upthread alleges. It is being a responsible parent.

I do, however, disagree with those heads who refuse to use the discretion they have to allow term time holidays in circumstances that really demand it, e.g. where the parents have jobs that mean they cannot get time off during school holidays.

MiaowTheCat · 06/04/2017 13:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Batgirlspants · 06/04/2017 13:17

Well whether you think he's right or wrong it doesn't make him an arse not to pay a fine he feels is wrong. Thankfully we don't live in a police state yet.

Oblomov17 · 06/04/2017 13:17

Only to be expected. Gov to say .... no you can take your kids out anytime? Errr no!

CauliflowerSqueeze · 06/04/2017 13:18

Do you reckon his ex-wife has to put up with this level of nobberdom every time she asks for something.

Jon, I was wondering if you could pay for DD's new shoes as I'm out of cash.

Errr well I think you'll find if you refer to our contract paragraph 336 subsection 8 point 3 there is a statement that in fact YOU are to pay for all footwear until DD is 8 years old. And I believe she is 7 years and 8 months old. I have a legal team on standby to fight for this and I will not accept I am wrong ever.

Ok Jon. I'll just get some sellotape and try and stick them together again.

Correct answer, ex-wife. Contact me again in 16 weeks and 2 days and I will consider buying the next shoes, but only if they fall under the description of the pre-agreed contracted description as per paragraph 85, section 78, clause 3. Goodbye.

MrsPicklesonSmythe · 06/04/2017 13:18

I take my kids out for holidays. I've never been fined but it would be cheaper to pay a fine than paying out of term prices.
My kids have 100% attendance otherwise and are both top of their year groups academically. I take work with us if necessary but it's never disadvantaged them in anyway.

fluffiphlox · 06/04/2017 13:20

Correct decision. This Northern Irish bloke from the IoW seems to have only one mode: 'hysterical'.

TinfoilHattie · 06/04/2017 13:22

Do you reckon his ex-wife has to put up with this level of nobberdom every time she asks for something.

I think the salient phrase is EX-WIFE. Not wife.

giggly · 06/04/2017 13:23

In reply to the pp who say "there's 13 weeks to choose from" I work in a team of 7 all have school age children so don't always get the holidays off. Just saying that's how it goes in the real working world.

ohforfoxsake · 06/04/2017 13:23

But why does this only apply to state schools? If it's the law it should apply to all families surely?