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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

913 replies

Mulledwine1 · 06/04/2017 10:28

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

OP posts:
Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 17:01

Umm, I saw it in my role as a governor.

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 17:03

Blimey jellyfrizz there you go again letting facts get in the way of Dannys rant !!

I don't need placating. I know that my local heads knew my work situation and we negotiated directly with them when would be the least disruptive time to take my children out of school. And it worked.

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 17:06

oh, and again for the avoidance of doubt Dannythe... all of my children have been in state school education all of the time.

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 17:07

Either the teacher uses the time they should be preparing and marking or the students in class are held up while 'improved self esteem and curious DC' catches up.

I've already said this a few times on this thread but here we go again.

I am a teacher, children work at different levels. In a class of 30 there will be a wide variety in the levels the children are working at. I differentiate for all the children in the class, they do not have to 'catch up', they work at the level appropriate for them, if they pick it up quickly they move on, if they don't they get more support.

If we were always waiting for children to 'catch up' so they were at the same level we would never get anything done.

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 17:08

Umm, I saw it in my role as a governor.

What's that saying about anecdotes and data?

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 17:09

Iris65. I never expected the teachers to help my children catch up. teachers are very well organised people ime and I made sure we knew what we were missing whilst away (they gave us worksheets, chapters being covered etc) and each of my children buddied up with one of their classmates so that all work was scanned and sent to them by e mail whilst we were away.

No need for catching up on their return - that was our responsibility as parents to make sure they were up to date. not their teachers.

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 17:11

stop it jellyfrizz what a repost ! Smile

I just hope to God this person isn't a Governor at any of my children's school.

Barbie222 · 07/04/2017 17:28

Yes I agree with pp who explain how children work at their own pace in class. However, it's not nice to see a child slipping down an ability level when they have missed work due to holidays. They are always aware of it, no matter how you present it to them, and it might seem like a little thing but it can knock a child's confidence in something like maths where the building blocks need to be secure to move on. They see that the others on their table can do it and they don't know why they can't.

Regarding holidays, most parents just take a day either side of the holidays to get the cheaper flights. That makes next to no difference. But there are some who persistently go away for two weeks in September, say, and that does have a big impact even on young children. One good thing though is that the long extended trips to Pakistan and Bangladesh seem to have stopped as a result of the legislation and those children are now on a more even playing field.

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 17:36

"What's that saying about anecdotes and data?"

Using the data there were 130,000 fewer students regularly missing lessons once the fines were introduced seems to suggest that its working. That's the data.

The problems are also caused because too much of the Head's time is spent dealing with this. Its much more important that Head's are allowed to get on with their job there are far more important things to do.

BTW Mummy, you'd love me as a governor because as a group we've delivered some outstanding things to the school, and some of which was at my impetus and oversight. You know NOTHING about me, other than we disagree on this point.

mjpdre · 07/04/2017 17:38

I think all of this misses the major point. Why are holiday companies allowed to use this level of difference in pricing for the same product?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 07/04/2017 17:41

I think all of this misses the major point. Why are holiday companies allowed to use this level of difference in pricing for the same product?

The school holiday price is the 'real price'.

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 17:42

Regarding holidays, most parents just take a day either side of the holidays to get the cheaper flights. That makes next to no difference. But there are some who persistently go away for two weeks in September, say, and that does have a big impact even on young children.

This is the thing, most parents care a lot about their children's education and believe that school is important.

Some don't and these will usually also be the parents that don't read with their children or support them with homework. It's usually a bigger issue than just the time off.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/04/2017 17:42

its the H/T job to deal with these issues, that is why they are paid above the national average because of their duties and responsibilities

No, the HT's job is to oversee the running of the school. Granted this will include some pastoral issues such as holiday applications, but when dealing with "my exception's special" parents starts to take up a disproportionate amount of time, surely it's time for this to stop ... which is, in fact, precisely what many asked for

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 17:43

Supply and demand.

There is much higher demand in holiday time and the supply remains the same.

fatimashortbread · 07/04/2017 17:45

TeenamdTween Arran does this - they get 3 weeks in October and shorter Summer holdaysas tourism is a key industry

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 17:46

Using the data there were 130,000 fewer students regularly missing lessons once the fines were introduced seems to suggest that its working. That's the data.

Not sure how you worked that out? Is that the difference between 2012 & 2013 data? Overall absence goes up again in 2014.

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 17:52

One good thing though is that the long extended trips to Pakistan and Bangladesh seem to have stopped as a result of the legislation and those children are now on a more even playing field.

It hasn't. they have a religious exemption within the law as do service personnel.

Andrewofgg · 07/04/2017 17:58

Why are holiday companies allowed to use this level of difference in pricing for the same product?

Holiday companies are brokers between hoteliers and charter airlines on the one hand and holidaymakers on the other. They buy seats and rooms in bulk and sell them to us, taking a cut.

Hoteliers and airlines naturally charge more when demand is higher - and they are beyond the reach of our law (the hoteliers and the foreign airlines in any event, and making British charter lines abide by restrictions which the foreign lines could ignore would be absurd) - so there is nothing to be done.

Sorry, but if you want to travel at peak time you are over the barrel. Sure, we could juggle with term dates but that would complicate life for people who want to see family or travel with them. And in any event August, Christmas, and Easter week will remain peak, won't they?

alltheworld · 07/04/2017 18:01

Sometimes it's not about going on holiday but visiting relatives overseas. I deeply regret not visiting my sick and dying dad more in his last years but due to flight prices in school holidays could only go out once a year. I could not afford the fines and in my lined work could not break the law anyway. I wouldn't have taken the kids out of school for two weeks at a time but a few days leeway at the end of term (when very little learning going on anyway) would have made all the difference. I think the old system worked well and how come private school pupils can manage with far shorter terms without being fined?

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 18:12

"how come private school pupils can manage with far shorter terms without being fined?"

Longer days, smaller classes.

brasty · 07/04/2017 18:13

I though private school pupils on average actually had more teaching hours than state pupils?

Maireadplastic · 07/04/2017 18:18

There are fathers (and their families) in the world being killed for trying to access education for their daughters and this man is fighting to take his daughter out of her free education to go to Disneyland? Obscene.

ShiroiKoibito · 07/04/2017 18:20

"As an example, when pricing 4 days in Bluestone at the end of August/beginning of September, there is an £800 jump in price. That is fucking disgusting."*

Except of course it's the other way round. The price for off-peak is an £800 reduction on the regular price.

It's supply and demand - neither is a reduction on one or surcharge on the other

The gvmt can't legislate that holiday firms lower their prices in peak times
If they do that then they should lower peak train prices so I can use the train in the morning with a cheap day return..? (I can't think of another example)

The most sensible thing here as (as suggested many times here) is for the gvmt to allow different holiday times

WomanStanley · 07/04/2017 18:21

I think this depends on your perspective on irresponsible parenting. Is it more irresponsible to take your kids out of school for a fortnight or never give them a holiday? IUltimately there should be legislation in place making it illegal to charge more for holidays outside of term times.
Poor people deserve holidays. Probably more than most.

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 18:27

"ltimately there should be legislation in place making it illegal to charge more for holidays outside of term times. "

They can't do that though, if you made them charge higher prices when demand was lower, demand would lower even further, suppliers would leave the market, and prices in term time would have to go up because of shorter supply.