Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

It doesn't make you forefit your rights and freedoms, there are conditions of accepting the service that you freely entered into, but once accepting the service you accept the terms on conditions imposed on both parties

Beautifully put

On a slight tangent, has anyone else on the thread been involved in employment and dealt with the endless "yes, buts", insistence that an employee is somehow more deserving than everyone else or even downright resistance to simply being told what to do?

In many ways this has been an education in itself as to exactly where those attitudes come from ...

On a slight tangent, has anyone else on the thread been involved in employment and dealt with the endless "yes, buts", insistence that an employee is somehow more deserving than everyone else or even downright resistance to simply being told what to do?

There has been a number of threads about parens being prioritised in work places and childless people get a shit end of a stick.

So Danny do you think it's fair that richer parents can continue to take their kids out in term time and just stump up for the fines?

Surely if this issue is so important the system shouldn't enable the more wealthy to buy themselves out of following the rules.

Dannythechampion yes school should be a bespoke service taylored to each individual child as each child is different unless you believe that school should be about beating children into conforming to what the government believes is best!

It doesn't make you forefit your rights and freedoms, there are conditions of accepting the service that you freely entered into, but once accepting the service you accept the terms on conditions imposed on both parties

Parents must provide an education by law, it is not a choice so not totally 'freely entered into'. For those who cannot afford private the only choice is homeschool and I thought this law was about keeping children in school, not pushing them out.

Surely if this issue is so important the system shouldn't enable the more wealthy to buy themselves out of following the rules.

Surely if schooling were so important they would be investing more funds per child not cutting them.

"I can only think that perhaps you haven't any experience of this and this is why you are posting some of the nonsense that you are. "

How presumptive of you, you're wrong, how dare you make such accusations, there are PLENTY of people on this thread that agree with me,.

We all have difficulties, for example there are around half a million teachers who never get to take holidays in term time. There are millions of children who live in poverty who won't get one at all.

The other point you make regarding "religious and cultural festivals" actually you can get permission to go on pilgrimage, so your wrong there.

But thanks for your patronising post, your dog whistles, your dismissal of academic studies ( also backed up by peer review and other studies, so you know not one study in isolation as you have outlined).

Blah blah blah, entitled stampy parents like you are exactly the reason why this law gets enforced, suck it up buttercup.

There has been a number of threads about parens being prioritised in work places and childless people get a shit end of a stick

You're right, there have - and many of them make clear just how close those employers are coming to the risk of a discrimination claim

As has been said, parenthood is not a protected characteristic

"taylored to each individual child as each child" (sic)

Yes tailored to their educational need, which is why MOST schools, give discretion on certain things that are of educational benefit. A holiday abroad is not " a need".

You'd think the Government would be leading the way showing how important education is by investing in it properly rather than cutting funds.

What kind of an example is that to the population about the importance of schooling?

Quite Jelly. It's a joke.

"I thought this law was about keeping children in school, not pushing them out."

Denying a child an in term time holiday isn't pushing them out. A parent who cannot work with the school within the rules that the school is set by law to work within does.

Denying a child an in term time holiday isn't pushing them out. A parent who cannot work with the school within the rules that the school is set by law to work within does.

You said earlier if people don't like it they can home school. But the purpose law is about keeping children at school so your statement is counterproductive.

Personally I'd just pay the fine if I didn't have to work term time. A week's holiday in non exam years is not going to harm the education of a child that is well supported at home and has no underlying issues and usually does wonders for self-esteem and curiosity about the world.

I said earlier that if you didn't like following the terms and conditions of service you can use a different service. That's your choice, if you really object ( and you seem to) to this particular terms and conditions and remove your child from the school because of it then YOU have kept them out of school because of YOUR preferences.

For someone who is so libertarian you seem not to want to accept the consequencess of your own actions.

"A week's holiday in non exam years is not going to harm the education of a child that is well supported at home and has no underlying issues and usually does wonders for self-esteem and curiosity about the world."

Ah but there you go, you are making exceptions for yourself, and putting the responsibility for deciding who does and doesn't get the exceptions on someone else. Heads don't want this because it takes up too much time and is divisive.

....and someone that cant answer a question honestly dannythechampion?

Re-read my post dearie. you will see that I make it quite clear that there is a religious exemption but, and you failed to see this bit for some reason, the original intention of the legislation was to stop families taking their children to cultural festivals etc. I was making the point, which others obviously clearly get, that the original intention was to stop one thing but that very thing had to be taken out because it did not accord with the "equality proofing" all legislation has to have.

I am neither entitled nor stampy. I do however have the experience and the imagination to know that not all lives are lived the same and that not all people are in exactly the same situation as me.

perhaps you need to stop the keyboard warrior bit and get out more.

and stop keep making it about holidays abroad. this is about holidays in the UK as much as those abroad.

I am glad that you follow the rules for everything all the time. I suppose there has to be someone in the world who just does as they are told without question. Still don't think you have kids and still don't think you/ you and your partner work full time. Just for the record I do have children - a few of them are still school age and some are just out of school. I also work full time self employed running my own business as does my DH. And I have no family support with child care and never have had.

For someone who is so libertarian you seem not to want to accept the consequencess of your own actions.

Huh? I can't do term time holidays as I'm a teacher so it doesn't really apply to me but can't you see that if people don't give a shit about their children's education pushing them towards home schooling is really not going to be helpful?

Ah but there you go, you are making exceptions for yourself, and putting the responsibility for deciding who does and doesn't get the exceptions on someone else. Heads don't want this because it takes up too much time and is divisive.

Nope I'd be happy to make the decision myself and will do if ever I am able to have a term time holiday that I feel is more important educationally for my children.

Heads don't want this because it takes up too much time and is divisive and the fact that private school pupils don't have to pay the fines isn't socially divisive? Or is that alright then?

Head teachers are highly qualified, intelligent people with their fingers on the pulse of their community. Not pen pushers hiding in an office afraid of dealing with the difficult social issues and people.

its the H/T job to deal with these issues, that is why they are paid above the national average because of their duties and responsibilities.

You are being incredibly naïve if you don't think this change is going to cause heads even more grief.

Let H/T do their job. Let them decide based on their knowledge of the child and the family and their community, if someone should or should not be given time off. I feel much more confident about my children's head making this decision than someone in London who has no idea of my life, work or personal circumstances.

"I suppose there has to be someone in the world who just does as they are told without question."

You have no idea about me dearie and I certainly don't have to justify myself to you.

I didn't make it about holidays abroad, its about holidays at home too.

By the way, I'm self employed, have two very successful businesses and 3 children.

"that the original intention was to stop one thing but that very thing had to be taken out because it did not accord with the "equality proofing" all legislation has to have. "

No, there was a major issue with parents and holidays too, this is your dog whistle again. Pathetic and contemptible.

Really you are though, because you are a jumped up entitled type who insists that your situation is more worthy than others, why is it ok for you to take your kids out and not the minorities to take theirs.

I can think of plenty of much better things for heads to do than decide who should and shouldn't be allowed to go on holiday.

grannytomine That was embarassing - yes I do see - amazing what a night's sleep and a head without two large glasses of red wine does for the quality of one's thinking!
But you know, my son missed holidays because we couldn't afford the same holidays in school vacations.

When head teachers asked for the decisions about term time holidays to be taken away from them. THEY said it was divisive, they said it took up to much time, they said that it often put heads in very difficult positions and that having to deal with parents over it was difficult.

Let Headteachers be headteachers, rather than having to placate the needs of stampy parents like yourself.

"Its the H/T job to deal with these issues, that is why they are paid above the national average because of their duties and responsibilities. "

Its the H/T job to ensure the school provides the best education it can within its budget, and to the standards prescribed by government. I

No, there was a major issue with parents and holidays too.

Umm, no. Where did you see that? Here's a link to all the absence stats: www.gov.uk/government/collections/statistics-pupil-absence

Let Headteachers be headteachers, rather than having to placate the needs of stampy parents like yourself.

I'm more than happy for the heads to be taken out of it and it to be left up to the parents. As long as support is given to persistent absentees.

Really you are though, because you are a jumped up entitled type who insists that your situation is more worthy than others, why is it ok for you to take your kids out and not the minorities to take theirs.

No I am absolutely not saying that my situation is MORE worthy than others but that it is of EQUAL worth. Do keep up.

Sirzy - my point is that H/T are chronically undervalued and that all of these blanket rules just take away their flexibility and opportunity to use their knowledge of their community and their experience.

Cut out most of the paperwork crap that Heads have to do and have been piled upon them by successive governments and then they would have time to be what they should be wouldn't they? Its a whole other point I know but it is allied to this. The whole system is bonkers if professions spend more time filling in assessment forms and stats and everything else and not doing their profession.

A week's holiday in non exam years is not going to harm the education of a child that is well supported at home and has no underlying issues and usually does wonders for self-esteem and curiosity about the world

And then they return to a classroom in which they have no idea what is going on and the teacher is expected to fill in the gaps. This is always at someone else's expense. Either the teacher uses the time they should be preparing and marking or the students in class are held up while 'improved self esteem and curious DC' catches up.