Page 24 | Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

Mulledwine1 · 2017-04-06T09:28:47+00:00

[[https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf]] [[https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf]] AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 18:27

Shiro - if you write down on a calendar

all the public holiday dates
all the exam timetables not just A and GCSE level but 11+ KS etc
all the deadlines for things like UCAS, exam results etc

Then actually there is very little leeway to change the school term dates significantly. you couldn't have some schools breaking up in mid June and going back in August because of the exam timetables.

There is a week either side on some holidays but for example Easter is when Easter is and August bank holiday, Christmas etc. We did this exercise as part of working with our MP to oppose the changes and it is actually very tricky especially as the children get older and into senior school. what you couldn't end up with is senior school kids on one calendar and junior on the other because this would be even more chaotic.

also as some teachers have previously pointed out, if you teach in one LEA and your kids go to school in another then when will holidays coincide?

If they moved a lot of things like not applying for Uni before you got your results etc and made sats moveable then there would be more space for this but at the moment so many fixed points relate to so many other fixed points that it is almost impossible to get anything other than the odd week here or there.

mummymeister · 07/04/2017 18:32

WomanStanley how would you ever be able to make this work. Unless of course you went down the route of state paid for holidays.

Holiday companies are businesses. they set their prices for supply and demand. if you run a family friendly hotel then 13 weeks you are crammed to the gunnels with waiting lists and the other 39 weeks you are practically empty.

When we quote for a job we look at all the other work we have on. If we are really busy at that time, we quote high. if we are quiet and want the business we go lower. that's how businesses work. supply and demand.

if you are holding out for some sort of legislation to stop this then you have a heck of a long wait.

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 18:36

You also couldn't legislate for operators based in other countries.

Well maybe you could if we were part of some multi lateral organisation that set regulations across a set of countries that would benefit consumers and producers alike but....

Maireadplastic · 07/04/2017 18:44

There are fathers (and their families) in the world being killed for trying to access education for their daughters and this man is fighting to take his daughter out of her free education to go to Disneyland? Obscene.

gluteustothemaximus · 07/04/2017 18:45

We used to apply for 5 days each year, when eldest was little, and were always granted it. Head used to say family time was important, and we had zero money.

Since the changes, and now eldest is at secondary, there is just no choice.

And no, I don't agree to spend longer saving up. £1000 or more for a week away in a caravan in the U.K., isn't worth it. When you have little funds, you can justify a £300 trip, but to pay £1000 for the same, better spent on essentials for us/kids.

So either we get a miracle cheap bargain during term time, or no holiday.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/04/2017 18:46

Poor people deserve holidays. Probably more than most

Why? I can just about see that "poor people" might enjoy a rarely-experienced holiday more than someone who goes away all the time, even if just for its novelty value ... but deserve?

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 18:48

There are fathers (and their families) in the world being killed for trying to access education for their daughters and this man is fighting to take his daughter out of her free education to go to Disneyland? Obscene.

Both sides of the freedom coin.

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 18:51

Its not an infraction on your freedom, your free not to state educate your child, so you don't have to abide by those terms and conditions, when you do state educate your child you are agreeing to the terms and conditions. Freely.

MaisyPops · 07/04/2017 18:57

Teacher view is that 1 week in a non exam year is probably not going to have a massive issue. But there should be zero expectatons for teachers to make up work packs in advance or provide 1-1 catchup. When the kids get back they can borrow a friends book and catch up.

The issue is some people arent sensible.

Eg. Today is the last day of term. I have just had a GCSE student this afternoon tell me they are off school the 1st 2 weeks AFTER the Easter holidays. Ummm.. ok. I guess. Sure they're y10. But we have 5 weeks to cover a topic for their exams and they're missing 2/5 of it. And this topic is not covered again until we do revision half way through y11.

hks · 07/04/2017 18:58

imo they should be allowed at the discretion of HT. my kids loose more learning time in class due to disruptive pupils and teachers having to stop and sort it out on a daily basis

Railgunner1 · 07/04/2017 19:12

There are fathers (and their families) in the world being killed for trying to access education for their daughters and this man is fighting to take his daughter out of her free education to go to Disneyland? Obscene.

Priceless! Just couldn't wait until someone brings up this

Maireadplastic · 07/04/2017 19:14

Why Railgunner?

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2017 19:17

Its not an infraction on your freedom, your free not to state educate your child, so you don't have to abide by those terms and conditions, when you do state educate your child you are agreeing to the terms and conditions. Freely.

If you don't like it; leave is always a strong argument isn't it?

But no, I meant that people are free to question their government on any aspect they don't believe in. It doesn't make the law right.

Dannythechampion · 07/04/2017 19:25

People are free to question the government that's fine, I'm all up for that. I object to people getting upset with schools, and blaming them as they have very strict rules to work within.

Lovelymess · 07/04/2017 19:40

The fine is still worth taking tbh. Still works out cheaper than going in school holidays. the prices are just extortionate in the holidays.

I will be taking my kids away in term time. Until senior school when they really cannot afford to miss lessons and stuff.

Same here

Railgunner1 · 07/04/2017 20:00

Why Railgunner?

Just been a thread about "First world problems" and "Check your privilege"... When people are told not to get upset about dog shit in their gardens because bombs are falling in Syria

SoulAccount · 07/04/2017 20:13

"Ultimately there should be legislation in place making it illegal to charge more for holidays outside of term times"

This makes no business sense and would require a heavy handedness on the market seen only under communism.

Holidays are sold cheap in off peak times. If operators were able to command higher prices at those times, you can bet they would charge them. They have to make a viable average over the whole year.

The period of out lives when we are bound to the school holidays (unless we are teachers) is much shorter than the pre and post kids years, so it's swings and roundabouts. Enjoy cheap hols when the kids leave home.

It's been very inconvenient round here this Easter, with some schools breaking up a week later than others. Terrible for teacher parents and many working parents have had a 3 week holiday stretch to cover, with some kids off early and others later.

LornaD40 · 07/04/2017 20:32

I think people are forgetting these aren't just 'the rules', it's the law!

Also, they can go straight to prosecution (potentially much greater penalties), so I wouldn't rely on 'just a £60 fine'.

BrieAndChilli · 07/04/2017 21:15

The way it's always been school holidays have been 100% fully booked, mid season say 75% booked and off season say 25% booked
Surely now people aren't going to be able to take kids out of school the mid season and off season rates of booked holidays is going to fall meaning that the price in school holidays is going to have to go up to compensate??

Lottie5mummy · 07/04/2017 21:17

I don't agree with the judgement - I don't really agree with a lot that goes on within our school systems putting children under so much pressure to perform through a funnel which makes schools jump through hoops. I think parents should be able to have adult conversations with their child's school to assess whether it would be detrimental to that particular child to have the time off. I had already spoken to our school about taking my dd out a couple of days early at Christmas as I can't have any days off in between Christmas and New Year (small team). The impact on her GCSEs (because she's 5 and not a child genius!!) will be minimal and we would make sure she did some reading/writing and maths whilst we were away. Unfortunately due to work we can struggle to get time off during school holidays and have to put dd in to childcare or with grandparents therefore a couple of days every now and again to spend quality time together. We only get one chance at this childhood thing.

mumto2two · 07/04/2017 21:37

Funny how schools are so well versed on legislation that imposes obligations on the parents, yet are completely clueless when it comes to obligations imposed on themselves. Particularly in relation to chronically sick kids who miss a lot of school through no fault of their own,
DD regularly has weeks off at a time for health reasons and has been in and out of hospital for years, yet in spite of legislation being very clear in that, any child who misses more than 3 weeks school in any year, should have additional measures in place for missed education, regardless of ability...our school has not once provided a single jot. No extra work, no catch up material, not even a discussion on her return.
Because she's above average ability and not likely to drag their performance tables down, they could not care less! And even when I kicked up a fuss and they contacted the county council, they couldn't care less either!

birdbandit · 07/04/2017 21:40

I agree with the ruling, because it isn't just about holidays, it is about the school and their authority/rules.

If I were to teach my children that they are special, that the school rules don't apply when I don't like them, then I would be stuck when it comes to other stuff, like homework, revision etc.

It is to a child's detriment, in my opinion, to teach them that they are unicorn special, that they can choose to regard/disregard laws.

FlyAwayPeter · 07/04/2017 21:45

No-one has a right to a package holiday abroad. And parents need to take responsibility for educating their children. A week at Disneyland is not educational.

Railgunner1 · 07/04/2017 21:54

Again, its NOT about package holidays. Its about control and loss of freedom. People often complain about nanny state, but enjoy being the goady lot. 'Can't afford Disney in August? Enjoy camping in the rain!'

umizoomi · 07/04/2017 22:06

I don't agree with taking kids out for weeks but where is the line drawn? Will people be fined for 1 afternoon? 1 morning? In our LA the HT told me under 3 days wouldn't be approved but there wouldn't be a fine.

I honestly don't think they can seriously fine for very short periods of time. I mean, when the teachers go on strike again like they did a year or two ago, what makes that day of missed school different to any other of the missed days? Or the fact that some achools close for elections?