Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

I don't agree with it.
We both work FT and shifts (NHS for me) and we have no grandparents around as they are all RIP. We struggle big time to organise our lives around two children and working. We often work opposite each other and work opposite weekends so a week, or two, off together would be a godsend for us.
DH gets FIXED allocated holidays, and can't swap them, so he rarely gets any time off in the school holidays. So, we can't have a week together as a family in a whole school year. He is lucky if he gets one week every 3-4 years.

I think those who get school holidays off would soon change their minds if they weren't allowed any time off in the school holidays.

Railgunner how about prioritising your children's education and not going?

it isn't about just holidays. the world doesn't turn around school calendar. families do have other commitments too, besides 100% attendance. in the long run, it means totally nothing.
i certainly don't remember every mundane school day. but i remember going somewhere.
i'm really surprised that people are so willingly signing off their freedoms for some mystical greater good.

Railgunner how about prioritising your children's education and not going?

Not all education happens in school.

"I think those who get school holidays off would soon change their minds if they weren't allowed any time off in the school holidays."

But myyyy circumstances are exceptional, said every parent, ever, for anytime that they want.

We also want schools to be held accountable for results and we only want good schools for our children to go to, says every parent.

Schools and teachers that are deemed not to be good should have intereventions put in, and if these don't work should be closed or sacked. Said every parent ever.

I want to have my cake and eat it, it appears is the mantra here.

Unless of course you want the OFSTED system changed, which means that you want a far larger change to the system.

Yes, I do. I would think most teachers do.

But myyyy circumstances are exceptional, said every parent, ever, for anytime that they want.

And so it should be up to parents to decide the situations that are more important than school.

The schools were not empty prior to the fines being introduced.

I want to have my cake and eat it, it appears is the mantra here.

it actually appears more, that every school holiday people are whinging about it being too long, children bored and having no free childcare. and that's what i'd call taking a piss.

"And so it should be up to parents to decide the situations that are more important than school. The schools were not empty prior to the fines being introduced"

No it shouldn't be, state education is not a bespoke service that can cater to the whims of all people at all times.

YOU think YOU should be allowed to make the decisions about what is more important situation than school. So does everyone else.

You get a publicly provided service, free at the point of delivery, the parameters are set before you start using it and you know about them, you need to work within them.

You get a publicly provided service, free at the point of delivery, the parameters are set before you start using it and you know about them, you need to work within them.
its a service. not a sentence. you shouldn't have to forfeit your rights and freedoms.

I totally agree families have other commitments but I don't think a friend's (not even a particularly close friend) wedding is really a commitment which takes priority. Perhaps a sibling's or best friend's wedding but not a member of your extended social circle.
Moving on from that point, if the government are going to refuse parents the right to take their children out, they should also grant parents the automatic right to leave during school holidays. I know some people just can't get the time off. Yes, I know that's an unworkable idea so the only solution is bit of common sense and allowing up to a week for children with good attendance in order to have a family holiday.

Prioritising education may mean the day off. As someone posted upthread this isn't just frivolous holidays its potentially any absence. I know dds balket school has to give our letters as some local schools don't understand they can authorise leave for RAD ballet exams (which count towards ucas points)

My dd has a serious disability. A well renowned charity run a 3 day weekend every year. The children can meet peers/adults with disability, try out equipment and sports, see latest developments in prosthetics.
But this year it's on a Friday. Dd is in school as our half term is a week later than most. So we don't go. But she will have just started yr 7 with new classroom challenges. We haven't booked to go as she is starting state secondary and I'm not sure how land lies. I'm not prioritising her education by missing this event. No doubt there would be some piece of equipment or tip that would make her and the teachers life easier.

"its a service. not a sentence. you shouldn't have to forfeit your rights and freedoms."

It doesn't make you forefit your rights and freedoms, there are conditions of accepting the service that you freely entered into, but once accepting the service you accept the terms on conditions imposed on both parties.

You want different terms and conditions? Use a different service.

Also equating it to a sentence is an appeal to emotion, flawed argument.

It is a difficult one to find a solution to. The way things are taught, in blocks of increasing complexity throughout the year, means you can miss a whole chunk of important "building block" knowledge. September in year 5 we have fractions for 2 weeks, for example. A child misses that, they are going to struggle with improper and decimal / fraction in the next block in Spring, unless I teach them over my lunchtimes when they get back, or their parents teach them.

This wouldn't be a problem if the parents actually did teach the missed work but in my experience this very rarely happens. It still wouldn't be a big problem if I were not held accountable as a teacher for their progress, and my pay reliant on my class all progressing to a ridiculous degree. My current target is 100% of my class at expected. It's already impossible enough without missing chunks of work.

I do sympathise with some requests though. I live very rurallt, and the Summer holidays just isn't a good time for the farmers and their workers and the agricultural plant employees to go away. In the past a headteacher in such an area would be able to listen.to.community demands and shift holiday times. They should be able to again.

I was routinely taken out of school as a child in the 70's and 80's as a result of my parents lifestyle. I missed so much maths that I never fully understood it, although my aptitude at everything else meant I did well. As an adult, knowing I wanted to teach, i retook my maths and it was as if a whole new world opened up. Those early maths building blocks are vital and hard to catch up on. On the plus side, my early struggles with maths and the techniques I used to hide my lack of understanding in class now inform my teaching helpfully, i can spot a place value pretender a mile off because I was one!

Dixie , talk to the school. I'm sure she could get her register mark and leave early. It would benefit her and that would be a good compromise solution?

You get a publicly provided service, free at the point of delivery, the parameters are set before you start using it and you know about them, you need to work within them.

Not true. Headteachers were allowed to authorize holiday when my children started school so the term of engagement have changed.

Dixie - I am against term time holidays in general but in that situation wouldn't think twice about a day off.

Last day before Christmas term there was an autism friendly showing of Chitty Chitty bang bang - to take ds meant missing an afternoon of school. The senco, head and class teacher where all in agreement we would have been mad not to go!

"Headteachers were allowed to authorize holiday when my children started school so the term of engagement have changed."

Heads wanted that to stop because everyone wants theirs to be authorised, everyone's situations are exceptional, and who they authorised and who they didn't was very difficult and took up inordinate amounts of time.

The rules of engagement haven't changed that much you knew that heads might not authorise your absences.

As is being repeatedly said, the vast majority of schools will authorise absences for lots of different things, this ruling just means that you can't take your kids out on holiday.

No it shouldn't be, state education is not a bespoke service that can cater to the whims of all people at all times.

The Education Act says this:

^Pupils to be educated in accordance with parents’ wishes.
Exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of [F1State and local education authorities]shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.^

So as long as schools are able to provide efficient instruction and training without that child being there for the week and it costs no more money then it shouldn't matter if parents believe the education outside school is more important than the education within school.

Some people's circumstances are exceptional. My son's school grants reasonable holiday requests because they can see that those children and their families have exceptionally difficult circumstances.

The rules of engagement haven't changed that much you knew that heads might not authorise your absences.

No, the rules were that up to 10 days of holiday would be authorised if attendance and performace were otherwise ok. You said the parameters are set before you start using it and you know about them, you need to work within them. No, they weren't set before my children started school, they have changed since my children have been at school.

I think an important thing to consider is holidays are a luxury. In my day people were just jetting abroad, there was no fuss about when you were away, as there wasn't SATs back then I don't think.

We had access to a private apartment, so never saw a package holiday till I was older.

In my eyes if you want to go against what the LA or HT have ruled, that's your business. But you can't complain if there's repercussions.

I mentioned a few weeks back, we were late booking, so it's looking unlikely we'll go away. We could afford to spend £1000 on a cottage for a week, but at the same time that's crazy money. Plus DS is in the year before SATs which I think determine GCSE sets, so for the next few years, even though our LA allows a week I think, we just wouldn't.

But it's each to their own.

"So far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure"

which means that the LA or the School can decide that the days off are not compaitable with efficient instruction and training

Brilliant, so the judges and the education act agree with me.

"No, they weren't set before my children started school, they have changed since my children have been at school."

You can always choose not to send your child to a state school if you feel that strongly about it. The parameters might have changed but you choose to keep your child on roll and keep them going every year, as long as the changes didn't happen mid year, by choosing still to send your child to the school you are aware of the paramters. Abide by them.

I

"Everyone's situations are exceptional in their own eyes."

True, Dannythechampion, but that's where the judgement and discretion of teachers and heads come in. They know full-time well which parents are reading to their kids, feeding and resting them adequately and which aren't; similarly, they're perfectly capable of making an assessment of the facts: how long is the time off, what is it for and what are the likely benefits of it versus who is/are the child/parents, how dedicated are they to school attendance and work the rest of time and how badly, if at all, is this likely to affect their progress. Pros v. cons.

In the first instance, why should the rest of us be penalised for crappy parents? And in the second, wouldn't the promise of being a bit better at supporting their child's learning resulting in a "yes" from their HT make at least some parents up their game?

If everybody had a 'choice' of a school they prefer, or home ed, this wouldn't be an issue.

Just a quick point specifically to Dannythechampion - do you have any school age children? do you/you and your partner both work in full time jobs?

because every post of yours just seems not to have any appreciation at all as to what it is like juggling children and work when you are both full time with no family support.

I can only think that perhaps you haven't any experience of this and this is why you are posting some of the nonsense that you are.

Good point Jellyfrizz - children are educated according to the wishes of the parent. its not a dictatorship - the parents wishes have to be taken account of.

All a thread like this really proves is that there are a significant number of people who:

a) cant afford to educate their children privately and therefore avoid the fines or
b) work in an environment with fixed holidays or
c) have partners who also work in an environment with fixed holidays which rarely coincide with them or the school holidays or
d) cant afford any sort of holiday home or abroad except in term time or
e) work in an industry where they cannot dictate what time they take due to the nature of what they do.

Now that's a pretty long list of exceptions. Its not about 2 weeks in Disney. its about having some time away from home and the pressures of it with your partner and children.

The original report to Parliament that led to this fuckwittery was done by an academic who interviewed a handful of inner city schools and came up with this idea that holidays should be banned.

what no one is saying is that if you read around this subject extensively then you will find out that the original reason for this legislation was to stop families taking their children abroad for months at a time for cultural and religious festivals.

rather than coming straight out and saying that's what they wanted to ban, because that would show the Tories to be racist, they dressed it up in Goves ruling which wasn't even a bill in its own right and then his own staff realised that it didn't meet the Govts own equality proofing as its known and inserted the exemption on religious grounds.

so the real reason for the bill in the first place had to be rescinded and now the Govt wont back down on it.

I have raised many times whether this addendum has been rural proofed as is required of all legislation because the effect on rural areas - tourism, smaller size work environments, rural poverty etc is pretty huge. I am still waiting for DCLG to get back to me on that one.

the legislation is a mess, its going to lead to a postcode lottery of enforcement and only applies to those of us not rich enough to privately or home educate (because both of us need to be working)