Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

Not at all.

I also reckon the number of people fined or investigated for "sick" days is tiny, and of that number the vast majority will be those parents whose children are persistent absentees.

I also reckon the number of people fined or investigated for "sick" days is tiny, and of that number the vast majority will be those parents whose children are persistent absentees.

Yes. Fining people is just fudging the numbers rather than looking at the fundamental issue of persistent absenteeism which DOES affect learning.

Its a quick win for nice data but does nothing to actually support those children that actually need it.

Its not just the quick win. It stops the faffing around with giving parents permission for holidays, or for the head to have to deal with those who don't get permission storming into the school to "have it out" with them, because Joe Bloggs parents got permission etc.

Lots of parents also took the mick with holidays. Kids having to be given special time to sit their controlled assessments, or being missing for 2 weeks before Easter in Y 11 for a skiing holiday.

Removes all pressure from the school. Can you go on holiday in term time? No, its illegal.

Yes, it helps headteachers which is why most headteachers support it, it makes their job easier.

Interesting that most teachers don't support it seeing as apparently it's them that have classes disrupted and have more work to do when children are away.

If children just go 'sick' instead of asking for time off nothing changes in terms of educational outcome.

If you agree with people being fined can I ask why? How does it affect you if other people choose to take their child out of school?

Term times hols as in 2 weeks off are very rare at dd's private school but tagging onto half term etc very common. So flying on a Thursday/Friday to save on flights etc. Or adding a few days making longhaul to visit family more viable in half terms not just summer. The difference can be hundreds of pounds in flights plus convenience for parents workwise.

They basically have a policy of publishing the crucial exam weeks/SATS dates in September and don't take the mickey and we'll authorise it.

They did say at start of this year to say Lancashire county council are now requesting attendance stats from them (mind boggling that they didn't before 2017 so no mechanism for LA to have fined a privately educated child before then) Even now report to LA will be x days sick, y days authorised absence so no possibility of a fine.

Very unfair 2 tier system but a massive perk of private. I think there would be much more outrage if it was widely known private don't get fines.

It's not just holidays it's the unexpected events and knowing that it will be ok'd makes life easier. I had major lifethreatening surgery in London hundreds of miles from home, DH had to collect me necessitating an overnight stay. DD came with as no one else to have her, my discharge luckily fell on a holiday but if I had been the Monday and quick call to school would have sufficed no silly unauthorised absence at an already stressful time.

Staggered holidays would help a lot it's not workable that the whole of the country is trying to take leave in the same 13 weeks. Until 15 years ago we still had wakes weeks locally, so everyone got week early July and another week in September. 2 week half terms for all in May and October would help aswell so people could have main hols then.

There has to be a consequence of breaking the regulations, and that's the one that makes people stop and think about it.

Don't support people being fined but if there isn't a consequence of breaking the regulations then the regulation is pointless.

Lots of teachers do support it, especially because its led to fewer proper holidays in term time. Many parents were reasonable and didn't do it often, many parents weren't and took the mick.

The consequence is not passing exams surely?

Reports in the TES showed that 60 odd % of teachers were against the fines.

Fair enough on the teachers poll, but there are a good few who support it due to being hauled over hot coals over exam results for kids who've been taken out of school.

Not passing the exams doesn't seem to bother some, oh and many would still blame the school.

I agree with the court you cant have children being taken out whenever the parent wants. I had enough trouble getting my three out of school fpr the afternoon to attend my sisters wedding as the head didnt see it as exceptional circumstances.

Why are you asking for permission for one day?

Just phone them in sick! See this is the daft thing here, people are getting all arsey about one day here or there, just do the simple thing to get around it and the school won't care.

Did anyone note that in this case the mother had already had the kids out for a holiday for 5 days, and the dad was then taking them out for another set?

Lying doesn't promote good relations between school and parent though. I much prefer the open x is happening that can't be done in holidays, ok we'll authorise it. Much more disruptive for child to be called in sick.

My friend's son age 4 was unauthorised to be a page boy at a wedding when he was 4 , 1 day off. Maybe unauthorised as it was same sex wedding and it was a church school? They are from overseas so a rare chance to see family members. At dd's school they would have authorised it and encouraged child to chat about it. So now parents are expected to lie, not tell child about exciting event as he will blab and call him in sick on the day. Seems a very odd way to have to go about things.

I didnt lie as my daughter was bridesmaid and im sure she would tell everyone when she got back. Plus i dont like to lie

Most schools round here grant authorised absence for holidays if attendance is usually good (above95%). However some people just take the piss. I know someone who is taking his dcs out to attend a friend's wedding in Cyprus. Is that really justifiable? It has nothing to do with cost and it's not a close relative's wedding.
An occasional absence for holiday won't damage your average child but it is disruptive and it does create extra work for the teachers trying to help someone catch up.

but it is disruptive and it does create extra work for the teachers trying to help someone catch up.

How so? The children would just be put in the 'did not get it the first time' group. Children work at a wide range of abilities within a classroom. 30 children will never all be working at the same level so a teacher will constantly be differentiating to ensure each child is working at the right level for them.

I know someone who is taking his dcs out to attend a friend's wedding in Cyprus. Is that really justifiable? It has nothing to do with cost and it's not a close relative's wedding.

leave children all alone at home instead would surely be a better idea, especially if they're in primary

Yes they do jellyfrizz but there's a difference between not getting it first time and not here as was in Australia for a fortnight! And differentiating for 30 kids is hard enough when you have needs to consider - a holiday does not come under that category. I'd love to know where you think teachers magic the tune up!!

Time up ^

It's not about being able to afford expensive resorts - many wonderful opportunities are simply not available during school holidays.

I am a responsible parent that supports and enables her child's learning and am capable of deciding what experiences are educational enough and/or worth enough to the family to outweigh a few days off school. I don't take decisions like that lightly, I wouldn't take more than a week a year, I wouldn't do it when it could affect exams and I would always factor in time to complete whatever work they would otherwise be doing that week. As such, it should be my decision, in discussion and conjunction with the school, to take my children away.

The problem is that we talk about "education" like it only happens in a classroom; like it only comprises learning about letters and numbers; like it stops when you're eighteen. Education is also about emotional intelligence, and how to behave like an adult should; it's about personal, social, and environmental responsibility; it's about different food, different landscapes, different cultures and how to be sensitive to them. It's about how to move in the world. I want to show my kids these things; to educate them to be open to the world it and careful in it.

Dammit, if I had kids just to outsource all that shit we may as well be giving them up at birth to educate them in government hives. We get a few, precious years here, before they hit late teens and fuck off to Shagaluf. I will make the most of those years.

There is no reason at all why we can't use sense and flexibility to facilitate families with this kind of balance.

"There is no reason at all why we can't use sense and flexibility to facilitate families with this kind of balance."

There is, because whilst you feel you are "capable of deciding what experiences are educational enough and/or worth enough to the family to outweigh a few days off school" so does everyone else! What this then leads to is everyone saying that their situation is exceptional, or demanding to know why headteachers won't give time off for certain things etc.

Everyone's situations are exceptional in their own eyes.

And differentiating for 30 kids is hard enough when you have needs to consider - a holiday does not come under that category. I'd love to know where you think teachers magic the tune up!!

I'm a teacher. I differentiate many ways whether or not someone has been off, children work at different levels in any classroom. It is not extra time, it is the same amount of time I would be spending anyway and yes it is hard.

There is, because whilst you feel you are "capable of deciding what experiences are educational enough and/or worth enough to the family to outweigh a few days off school" so does everyone else! What this then leads to is everyone saying that their situation is exceptional, or demanding to know why headteachers won't give time off for certain things etc.

the thing is people shouldn't demand or beg when they need to take their kids out. and schools shouldn't have a power to judge who's wedding or funeral is more important.
its called freedom and privacy

i'm not British. where i went to school, parents would just inform. if you went abroad, you'd bring a bag of foreign sweets to share out in class.

And if someone has been in Australia for 2 weeks we would probably use that as a learning point about time or the earth or travel or money or animals or weather or any number of the differences that would engage children and were relevant to what we were learning at the time (primary).

Railgunner how about prioritising your children's education and not going?

Yes, but then parents also want schools to be held to account by ofsted, you can't have it both ways. Unless of course you want the OFSTED system changed, which means that you want a far larger change to the system.

"its called freedom and privacy wink"

Want total freedom and privacy? Send your kid private. Want a state education? Then you have to work within the parameters that the state sets out for schools and parents.