Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

Mine both at private schools and I'd say this is rare apart from a few days tacked onto a longer holiday. You never see anyone take kids out for 2 weeks in middle of term to go to Spain, Disney etc

In fact, a rounded education, rather than one injecting the basic academics is the very reason many parents chose private over state schools.

You never see anyone take kids out for 2 weeks in middle of term to go to Spain, Disney etc

Rarely happens in state schools either. Most parents value education and the children of those that don't will have bigger struggles than missing a week or two of school.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

My dc1 has 100% attendance at the moment but I think that's mainly luck as both dc have had the chicken pox which wiped out half the class.

We were debating on taking dc1 out on the last Friday before May half term so we can go camping and book the entire week. But I don't think we will I think I will send DH and dc2 down and collect dc1 from school and head down.

It's hard as my DH has set holidays. So he gets a week at may, 2 weeks off in the summer holidays and week at Christmas, I have to cover the childminders holidays with my leave so we will not be getting more than a few long weekend as family time.

I'm not really into the whole let go away for 2 weeks anyway. I think schooling is very important and I'd hate to be a teacher, teaching children who have long breaks e.g. Sickness and holidays.

I'd hate to be a teacher, teaching children who have long breaks e.g. Sickness and holidays.

Why? Children work at many different levels, we are constantly differentiating to make sure they are working at the level they need to be working at. For each child that has been away for a week there will be one who just takes a lot longer to understand something, or someone who already knows it.

Mammamia that is probably because many privately educated kids have families struggling to pay fees with zero cash left over for holidays. Those wealthy families not paying private fees can afford holidays and do in term time. They just stump up the fines.

It is ludicrous that this can continue to happen.

Money/ fines should be taken completely out of the equation.

Weeks off for Disneyland are pretty common dc' s school. I've heard of plenty in 6 years.

"I said those who pay private value it more as they are willing to pay for it and do whatever it takes to meet that cost."

No they are simply buying privilege and are usually a bit snobby about "my child"

Private schools don't actually improve results, often the teaching isn't of as good as standard as it is in state schools.

Only 1 in 5 parents whose children go to private schools earn less than £50,000 so the much talked about parents who are scrimping and saving to pay for school are actually on a tiny number of people.

Seems that sending your children to private school has made you think you are a better person, when in fact your faulty logic and flawed critical thinking just proves it didn't do you much good.

I'm a bit torn on this. As I've said in a previous post I took my kids out of school back in the day and it did them no harm what so ever (both now at uni, did well at school etc.), so I'm inclined to be against fines. However, I was always very focused on their education, they had to do their homework, they read a lot (tablets were not invented).
I'm wondering whether this situation is similar to some public health legislation, such as water fluoride and sugar tax, in that the people who try to obstruct it aren't the ones who are supposed to benefit from it i.e. poorer kids who don't have privileged upbringings. Perhaps the fines and stopping term time holidays benefit those kids who don't have as many educational opportunities out of school. If so I guess this decision is a good thing.

Weeks off for Disneyland are pretty common dc' s school. I've heard of plenty in 6 years.

A week yes. 2 weeks I have honestly never seen.

I think the major problem is that everyone thinks their case is exceptional.

If everyone's case is exceptional and lots of kids get taken out of school it effects the school overall.

Perhaps the fines and stopping term time holidays benefit those kids who don't have as many educational opportunities out of school. If so I guess this decision is a good thing.

I understand your point but perhaps there would be a better way of dealing with this e.g. reinstating funding for youth groups or offering Outward Bound type holidays or foreign exchange trips for those on the lowest incomes during the holidays?

Most parents are responsible and care greatly about their children's education. If this were about helping those that need support I'd be right behind it but it's not.

Several posters have said they would be happy to take their child out of school in a year that 'isn't important', I'm intrigued - which years do pps believe are not 'important ' ones? The way the current curriculum is designed, each year builds on skills learnt in previous years. If a child misses out on learning a new skill, whose responsibility is it to teach them? The teacher who has just taught the rest of the class? The teacher next year who realises that the child does not have the prior knowledge to fulfil the requirements of the curriculum for that year? The parents of the child? And when is this work to be done? A week out of school is 25 hours of learning time - where is the time for catching up going to come from? Sometimes at the end of term we do watch a DVD, but as a pp said, this is linked to what we've been doing in school. At the end of spring term we had one year group watching a film version of Oliver Twist to finish their Victorians topic, others watched Gnome and Juliet to tie up their work on Shakespeare. Other year groups watched DVD s which were strongly linked to either the book they have studied this term or their class topic. It's not just for fun. We do not stop learning in the last week of term. Basically the last half day of term is a little more relaxed, hence a DVD, but otherwise it's lessons as usual.

Several posters have said they would be happy to take their child out of school in a year that 'isn't important', I'm intrigued - which years do pps believe are not 'important ' ones?

Not exam ones. So year R, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 & 9. A week out of school is really not going to make a massive amount of difference if parents are otherwise supportive and there are no underlying learning difficulties.

If a child misses out on learning a new skill, whose responsibility is it to teach them?

Most important skills are revisited many times over a child's school life. Either alone or as a foundation skill for something else.

Why? Children work at many different levels, we are constantly differentiating to make sure they are working at the level they need to be working at. For each child that has been away for a week there will be one who just takes a lot longer to understand something, or someone who already knows it.

This is what I have been told over and over again by the teachers I know. I know probably more than average as my previous job was one that turned out quite a few people going into teaching as a second career. I have also had a teacher currently working in my child's school whisper "don't ask just phone them in sick!" when it was an absence of one day.

Lady Hale refers to 'obedient parents'. Are we dogs?

Lady Hale refers to 'obedient parents'. Are we dogs?

Yes! Trouble is, any other word would make it a value judgement.

Responsible parents? That's saying that those who do take their children out are irresponsible.
Law-abiding parents? Well, the law wasn't actually clear until yesterday or it wouldn't have got that far.

I booked a holiday to Butlins at the end of august which goes into the first week of September, I didn't realise that my boys returned on the Wednesday of that week, I thought it would be Monday, I haven't taken them out of school as its still part of the six week holiday when we go, wish the schools started back on a Monday as half way through a week seems pointless.
I work in a service job that has recently undergone a restructure resulting in a reduction in staff, that week was the only week that was available as everyone else had booked 2 to 3 weeks during august and due to service needs I was unable to book any time off

Why does it have to be School or nothing surely even visiting another country encourages a child interest and imagination. If a child is studying British history a trip to London and seeing the Houses of Parliament or Tower of London etc would have more merit than a whole term of studying. It seems schools do not understand that not all children learn the same! I hated school and left with no qualifications. Since I've discovered all sorts of things I find fascinating and learnt far more away from formal education such as a love of history a subject that just bored me in school. If one child being off is so disruptive how do teachers ever get anything done as at my kids schools there is rarely a day where at least one child isn't off sick and if a missing child is so disruptive can the teachers really cope with a class full of children?

So many in state see School as just something that gets in the way of their life and don't want to obey the rules re holidays, uniform etc but also aren't willing to opt out and home educate so just moan.
i know families who home educate because keeping up with school attendance nonsense would mean they'd never be able to go to things like festivals, demonstrations, camps and other events.

Nobody needs a holiday, it's a luxury item. Dressing it up as family time doesn't wash, family time can be anywhere anytime.
yeah, the goady brigade again. work until you drop dead, kids should learn that, goodness forbid they enjoy any 'luxuries' only afforded to their betters

"don't ask just phone them in sick!"

Works for a few days tbh, no one is going to question that. Lots of hysteria over doctors notes on here, which are not required for short absences at all, but for longer and recurring ones.

I'm on my first holiday as a single parent with my DCs. Seeing them away from home, having some real time together with no work/life distractions - I can't put a price on it. I saved for this and did it in the holidays as oldest is in year 10. But I would still do it in term time if I couldn't afford it. It's invaluable.

My parents never took us on holiday. Until I had my own and went on holiday I just didn't understand how much it matters.

I want them to be able to board a plane, to know how to get from A to B, to have travel as part of their lives.

I don't want them going from school to an office to a grave. And I certainly don't want to be kept on a tight leash.

"don't ask just phone them in sick!"

Data for absences 2014-2015 (year after headteachers discretion for authorising holidays was taken away) : www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509989/SFR10_2016_text.pdf

Figures for unauthorised absences went down but absence for 'illness' went up a similar amount - coincidence?

I haven't RTFT but as a teacher I think it's best kids are in school when they should be. I have had kids out when they've had mocks, major assessments, controlled assessment (gone now but we regularly do mocks now which are equally as important in assessing them before the exam at the end of it all). It may well not have too much of an effect on the individual child, but I have spent a lot of time mopping up those who missed work, if we're reading a novel then they have a week or twos reading to catch up on which either means they catch up in lesson or you have to rely on them reading it themselves (which the majority don't...) it's a total pain in the ass!! I have to take my holidays in the school holidays so I don't feel it's fair! We get 13 weeks in which to do it and we've done well. My other half is great at holiday hunting and we did two weeks in Florida in August on a cracking deal. It's more than possible.

The effect on the child may not be massive, but it can cause massive headaches when you're trying to catch up what they miss. Maybe people should aim their venting at the holiday companies. The amount of posts I've read mentioning "well shall we fine teachers when they're on strike" is ridiculous. They don't happen that often and are not for two week stretches nor do lessons go on around them.