Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

Yes, I haven't seen much unauthorised absence in private schools. We only go away on holiday about a week a year anyway. I am constantly amazed by how often people go away on holiday actually. It's very expensive to go away.

If you can get the school to authorise it go, if not don't. Eg my children's grandparent died about a year ago. They went up and back to the funeral, hundreds of miles by train in a day so as not to miss too much school - just one day.

We want a message to children that school is something to be respected and that parents and children obey school rules whether they like it or not and that that discipline is something that will stand children in good stead their whole lives if that example is shown to them.

Actually what irritates is that they say every day counts, yet I find lots of days were my child has actually done very little - watching a film as a treat for example. If I wanted to take my child out if school dress them in pjs and take them to the cinema the school would be !

I work in an all-year holiday resort in my town. Due to the timings our staff (myself included) are not allowed to take any holiday or leave during school holidays (and the week before/after) as it's our busiest time and we need all hands on deck.
My dcs school is very understanding of this (most workers live in the same town) and authorises holiday in term time for the children. I myself have had 3 weeks authorised in the last 3 years.

I'm really hoping this decision won't affect schools discretion when making these kinds of allowances.

I didn't say it was a good idea Andrew or workable, I said it was an interesting one.

I don't buy that it would put all of the holiday companies out of business, some maybe and there would be lower supply. But how is it right that they operate at a loss outside the school holidays? Surely people should at least pay for the cost of their holiday as a principle.

In some ways of course it's helpful to those of us with children. While my colleague goes for a week to barbados for £12.50 or whatever he paid for him and his annoying wife he never, ever takes time off in the school holidays. So I can. And I doubt I'm alone on this.

What punishment is Jon Platt facing if they are saying it's a criminal offence?

A huge fine or would it be community service as well? Could people go to jail for persistent holidays?

Education isn't the most important thing. Your relationships within your family are.

I agree. Raising responsible and successful members of society is about a whole lot more than knowing how to use fronted adverbials.

It just favours the rich who can do what they want,when they want.

The richer friends of my DC just take their kids out when they want and pay the fine. No skin off their noses.

It shouldn't be just money involved if it is to be really fair. Wealth shouldn't let you bypass rules.It also needs to be carved in stone and exactly the same for every child in every school. It varies hugely. Our area has one of the highest figures for leniant heads on this issue.

Rainbowsand in a thread chock full of bone headed arse hattery you have gone above and beyond. So parents who send their children to state school - ie 94% of the population - don't give a shit about their kids' education? Why, because they haven't got a spare £18 k a year to pull out of their backside so obviously that makes them feckless anti education slackers?

Also loving worraliberty telling us that all we need to do is save harder when for 16 years the most work she's had to do is be a lollipop lady. Maybe if you don't have to work 35 hours a week just to house you and your children it's easy to say that everyone else should just manage, but it isn't particularly helpful.

ShotsFired
Yes I do agree that peak must offset off peak of course. But my issue is the huge discrepancy in this. An £800 difference in one day is huge.

A PP called some people teachers' pets. I dont agree in so many words but this thread seems to be throwing up questions of how much people value education or family life. Growing up, our 2 weeks away were the most exciting time of year. I've always put work second personally, but perhaps those agreeing with the decision believe education and work to be a higher priority for them. I was very academic but dropped out of university because by the time I got to my second year I started wondering what the point was. I suppose some of it comes down to personal values in life.

I'm also intrigued as to teachers' views more than anything. My mum has been a teacher for almost 30 years and disagrees with the ban anf fines, as do most of her colleagues.

It just favours the rich who can do what they want,when they want.

The rich can afford to go on holiday during school holidays

A huge fine or would it be community service as well? Could people go to jail for persistent holidays?

I believe he is being prosecuted under section 444(1) of the Education Act 1996 which means he faces a fine. If he was prosecuted under section 1A he would face a bigger fine and up to 3 months in prison.

The richer friends of my DC just take their kids out when they want and pay the fine. No skin off their noses.

If they do that too often they face prosecution and may end up subject to a School Attendance Order or a Parenting Order.

Corporately, I highly doubt all state users don't value enducation and that's not what I said. I said those who pay private value it more as they are willing to pay for it and do whatever it takes to meet that cost.

I use state and value it by following the rules be in uniform or no term time holidays. We are very lucky to have a free education system (before someone bleats about taxes most people aren't even close to being net tax payers) so yes, choosing term time holidays shows a lack of respect for education.

It doesn't favour the rich, they can afford to go whenever.

those who pay private value it more as they are willing to pay for it and do whatever it takes to meet that cost.

Utter crap. In world full of equalities the majority cannot afford to access private education, it's nothing whatsoever to do with valuing it more, for most it's so far out of reach it could never be a consideration.

I'm also intrigued as to teachers' views more than anything.

I'm a teacher and truly believe that education is so much more than what is learnt in school. Parental involvement is one of the main indicators of academic success - so basically all the family experiences outside of school.

Rainbows that's ridiculous. I value education and am also willing to pay for it. But as a single parent of 2 earning £26000 a year I can't afford to.

I'm sorry but that is arrant nonsense. The reason that the vast majority of the population don't pay for education is not because they value it less but because they can't afford it. It is perfectly possible to value education even if you don't have a spare £18 k (ie more than a year's earnings on living wage) kicking around every year. It is also perfectly possible to not value education at all even if you pay for it - you could be doing so because of status or expedience or societal mores or any number of reasons.

Increasingly the rich don't just go in the holidays. My DC have friends who add on a week to half term to go skiing and a week at Easter to go to Florida as that is the best time to go weather wise and also to avoid crowds. Then there are those that go on exotic holidays and wish to go at optimum time not necessarily in holidays,family get togethers.....

I'll wager an awful,lot of fines paid are paid by wealthy families who view it as just another tax.

Friend of mine sends her children to private school

She happens to have a holiday home but because her school has extended holidays she can go the week before the counties half term and travel for half the price we do the following week

They can go to California like they did last year as they are off for two weeks and its much cheaper

Part of the reason for the increased scrutiny of absences is an attempt to kerb the numbers of children who go back to the families home country for extended periods of time. My cousin teaches in an area with a high proportion of children from a Pakistani background. Some of them are taken to Pakistan for family celebrations and can be away for a couple of months. The government has tried to raise the issue of term time holidays in a soft attempt to persuade all families that their children should not be removed during the school term.

I highly doubt all state users don't value enducation and that's not what I said. I said those who pay private value it more as they are willing to pay for it and do whatever it takes to meet that cost.

Ladies and Gentleman RainbowsandUnicorn has just officially taken the biscuit - common sense has left the room.

This is an outrageous statement on so many levels I just don't know where to begin. I care passionately about my children's education. I benefitted from a grammar school education coming from a very, very poor background and the benefits it gave me in terms of my career, earnings etc have been enormous.

You come across as one of those people who thinks that if it doesn't cost a lot then it cant be valuable.

I already pay for my children's education - its called tax. I am a net tax payer and so pay a lot of it, relatively speaking.

I know many, many parents who struggle to pay their rent, their bills etc but whose kids never miss school, home work deadlines or anything else because they know, like my parents knew, that education was the way out of poverty.

I don't agree with Corbyns policy of taxing private schools - only I see his point when I read posts like this.

Sometimes for some children the advantages of a term time holiday outweigh the disadvantages.
I know of one case where the family of a child with severe disabilities was given a holiday by a charity. Not money but a specific holiday at a specific time. The child's school would not authorise it because they said they were not allowed to authorise any holidays.

Not read whole thread but a few points.

Jon Platt comes across like a complete twat from his FB post. Incoherent and misguided. He's spent a load of money on lawyers and wasted court time, ie tax payers money. For that reason alone i disagree with his actions.

I'm amazed at all these posters whose kids have weeks off during term time and are all top of their class
Also amazed that people take their kids out for duvet days and sunny days i have literally never heard of this and really shocked - what kind of example does that set for your kid when they're in the world of work and they can't just not turn up if it's sunny outside? Seriously

Private schools - yes they are not bound by the same rules but really if you're paying thousands of pounds fees who really takes their kids out of that for two weeks for a trip abroad? Surely you'd want them to benefit as much as possible from that education. And private schools have longer holidays - most people go on holiday in first week of July when it's cheaper and their kids have finished school. Unfair or not that's how it works when you're not in the state system.

Having said all that I don't disagree with term time hols for circumstance like some have described. Platt is still a twit and I don't agree with duvet days.

Increasinglymiddleaged I don't buy that it would put all of the holiday companies out of business, some maybe and there would be lower supply. But how is it right that they operate at a loss outside the school holidays? Surely people should at least pay for the cost of their holiday as a principle.

What "principle" is there? Why should market forces have principles?

I can choose to go on holiday at any day of the year I like. I can go anywhere, with any airline or tour operator, I don't need family rooms or to sit together on the plane, I can make my own way to hotels etc etc. I am about as easy a customer as they come. But that also means I will go for the very best deal possible.

And any bed unsold is lost forever, so making some profit is better than 0.

So all in all, there is quite a fight for my custom in the off peak season, because they all want to fill that empty bed before they lose any chance of monetising it.

Come August (for example), they don't care because they are at max occupancy anyway.

but really if you're paying thousands of pounds fees who really takes their kids out of that for two weeks for a trip abroad?

You'd be surprised, I've worked at independent schools and many children are taken out for holidays.

Independent schools, and parents who sent their children to independent schools, put a high value on extracurricular activities and the benefits of a rounded education - travel is excellent for this.