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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder why the fuss about Easter and the national trust?

295 replies

Believeitornot · 04/04/2017 09:52

Theresa May has been quoted as being "furious" about the national trust removing easter from their egg hunts. Because she's the daughter of a vicar and a NT member Hmm

Now I had a look at the national trust poster and it clearly says Easter in big letters. They've just called the activities "egg hunts" but it's very clear it's happening at Easter.

AIBU to think she's massively over reacting over a non issue and might well be reminded that Easter was originally a pagan festival

OP posts:
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squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 10:28

That's interesting, NLWY, I am sorry for making incorrect assumptions about your faith. From a purely anecdotal basis it does seem to me that a lot of people who object to this sort of thing are doing it for nostalgic reasons, rather than religious ones, iyswim?
I can understand your annoyance at your nephews not knowing what Lent is much better than I can understand your annoyance at Cadbury's egg hunt.
I remember when I was at school, my mum (who is not religious) got very annoyed because I wasn't learning "proper" hymns. I was, they were just different from the hymns she sang at primary school, which in turn may have been different to the ones my grandmother sang.
My oldest relatives who would be much more likely to have dyed/painted chicken eggs as children, than exchanged chocolate eggs at Easter. Possibly they would be less annoyed about Cadbury appropriating chocolate eggs because for them, chocolate eggs were never a part of Easter at all. We all tend to think of the traditions we grew up with as being timeless, when in fact they are often much newer than we think.

So I think there is a lot of projection going on when stories like this blow up. People focus all their frustrations of a a culture in flux upon one, tiny non-issue. Its particularly counter-productive in this case, because the NT does do so much work to preserve our heritage, and like all charities they need money to do so. At the moment the pot of money available to charities is shrinking, as the number of worthy causes is increasing and this is likely to get worse. Attacking the NT for attempting to make money from Cadbury's is not going to help. Especially when the word Easter was used over and over by both Cadbury's and the NT.

It is a shame that your nephews don't know what Lent is, but if parents want children brought up in a Christian manner, they can not sit back and rely on a school to do all the work for them. This is not a modern phenomenom. Schools cannot (and imo should not) take the place of family. If they don't know the Easter story, why don't you tell them?

I think there is a big difference between teaching children about religion, and telling them that one particular religion is The Truth. The former is appropriate, in my opinion, the latter is not. Is that what you mean by superficial and meaningless?
Sorry to go all pop-psychology, but if you really examine why this issue annoys you so much, is it all possible that the insecurity you are feeling about your own faith might be a factor? Could you be projecting a tiny bit?

Orlantina · 09/04/2017 10:33

I'm sure you'll say their school isn't representative but if you've complained to your kids' schools about any Christian teaching or visits to some kind of Christian church but not complained about them being taught about other religions then I'd like to know why particularly

I have worked in schools where parents of one faith have complained about children learning about other faiths.

I have not worked in a school where parents have complained about learning ABOUT Christianity or visiting churches.

I have worked in schools where parents have issues with children having assemblies where they HAVE to worship God.

Oh - and you have an issue with parents telling children that God is not real. There are parents who have massive issues with teachers telling children God is real.

Orlantina · 09/04/2017 10:38

It is a shame that your nephews don't know what Lent is

Why do you think that? DS couldn't explain the actual reasons we have Lent. I don't think that's a shame. It's no more of a shame that he doesn't know why Muslims have Ramadan or Jews have Yom Kippur. He may well have been taught it. He may not.

I don't think it's a shame he doesn't know the full details.

Frazzled2207 · 09/04/2017 10:44

I went to an NT place yesterday and the "Easter Bunny Trail" most definitely was Easter-y.

squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 10:44

Sorry massive cross post, because I wrote a dumb essay! For what its worth I don't disagree with your concerns over your nephews school.

Orlantina: because an understanding of the most common religions in the country you live in is important, I think. It is part of the environment we live in, and learning about the world around you is important. You can appreciate why other people celebrate a particular festival, without sharing their faith yourself. Anything that reduces "othering" and intolerance is good in my book! Plus, its interesting.

Orlantina · 09/04/2017 10:53

because an understanding of the most common religions in the country you live in is important, I think

How much detail do you need? How much historical significance do you need to have.

I know Christians have Lent. I know a bit more why because I was brought up in the UK.

I know Muslims have Ramadan.

I know Jews have Passover - and I know the historical signficance of that.

I couldn't tell you much about Hindu festivals or Sikh festivals.

So...how much historical understanding of a festival do you need to have?

donadumaurier · 09/04/2017 12:39

Just thought I'd drop back in with this gem overheard in the churchyard today for Palm Sunday. In my branch of Christianity it's normal to move around/go outside for a bit etc throughout liturgy, so you get lots of children going outside to play for a bit.

Child to friend, in English (I suspect because mum was nearby supervising) did you know that normal church services are only two hours, only in our church they're four. FOUR. That's a sixth of our day!!! Wasted!!!

Fear not, despite the indoctrination of their early years and forced understanding of lent, scepticism is very much alive Grin (I don't think anyone can tell either way what path a child will choose as an adult, but it did make me laugh)

squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 13:40

Orlantina: Theologians can devote their lives to studying one particular religion, and they will still not understand that religion completely. So I am not suggesting that everyone should know all the details and history of all religions, because that is not possible. I don't know exactly what depth of understanding is the correct one, it will always be a compromise due to the time available - I would not like to see religious education expanded to the detriment of other subjects.

This sounds horribly idealistic, but I think that the best weapon against bigotry is knowledge. It is impossible to know everything, but that's not a reason to not bother learning anything.
I do empathise with people who feel that their religion is besieged, but I don't agree that is the situation. You don't have to go to church to be a Christian, but I think that Christians who don't attend church are much more likely to feel like part of a shrinking minority. Whereas, by definition, Christians who do attend church are in regular contact with other Christians, and will feel less isolated (and possibly less defensive?)

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 14:24

you've made many fine points squishy, you're probably right that the lack of Christian backstory to Easter and Christmas bothers me more because I can't bring myself to hypocritically take communion on Sundays.

I wouldn't want a teacher telling my children either that God is or isn't real Orlantina, that's a complicated question they need to make their own mind up about as adults to my mind. I don't like it when 6 year olds tell me with great certainty God doesn't exist as they can't have given the process due thought.

You're also right that it's nostalgia and the death of traditions I'm used to that I don't like, I accept that traditions change slightly between generations but taking Easter out of Easter celebrations is an immolation of the past rather than different hymns being selected.

will think more later! Children making it hard to think!

squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 14:53

Yeah, I'm still sort of thinking my way through many of these issues myself, hence the random tangents! Grin
Ironically enough, I was almost late for church this morning due to arguing about religion on the internet!

Orlantina · 09/04/2017 15:36

I wouldn't want a teacher telling my children either that God is or isn't real Orlantina. that's a complicated question they need to make their own mind up about as adults to my mind

Me neither. But that's kind of what we have in this country with collective worship in schools being compulsory..

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 15:45

I don't agree that mumbling through the Lord's Prayer is telling children that God exists - many staunch atheists did it! It's not like they are being forced into taking communion. I'm sure you can exempt your children too.

JassyRadlett · 09/04/2017 15:57

but taking Easter out of Easter celebrations is an immolation of the past rather than different hymns being selected.

Can you accept, though, the National Trust hasn't done this, at all?

I don't agree that mumbling through the Lord's Prayer is telling children that God exists

That's one interpretation of collective worship.

Your comment about six year olds interested me. Don't you find children of that age to be very black and white in their thinking? DS1 is 5 and has told me with great certainty that god is real, and that god isn't real. I find with kids of that age there isn't much space for 'I'm not sure'.

Also, does it bother you equally to hear a six year old tell you with certainty that God does exist/they do believe?

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 16:12

Cadburys certainly tried to do that in part to widen the appeal of their egg hunts. Honestly wonder who is so terrified of kids having to say a simple prayer once a day in assembly. I did this daily for years and it didn't inculcate any real faith in me.

Yes, it would bother me the other way too, my DD likes to talk about what heaven is like as we had a close family member die when she was very small and I remind her that not everyone believes there is a heaven and it's a complex question she has her whole life to think about.

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 16:13

In fact I find absolute certainty of any kind hard to relate to because most things are open to doubt. I dislike vehement atheism as much as I like absolute certainty of eternal life. I still believe in tradition and cultural heritage though!

JassyRadlett · 09/04/2017 16:30

Cadburys certainly tried to do that in part to widen the appeal of their egg hunts.

Then why have they mentioned the word 'Easter' so often in their marketing, in such massive letters (bigger than 'Cadbury')? Why does their associated website have 'Easter' in the URL? Even the digi ad showing up for me on this thread mentions Easter.

Honestly wonder who is so terrified of kids having to say a simple prayer once a day in assembly.

Why do you describe it as 'terrified'? I find it very arrogant to assume that children should have one faith promoted to them as 'special' through assembly at their schools. It implies that Christianity is the norm/default. Otherwise why would the school (who we tell kids to listen to and obey) be treating it differently to other faiths and none by incorporating it in the daily life of the school?

It's divisive. Some kids have to be removed from the assembly because their parents don't want them to participate. Others will feel confused and alienated because the school is telling them one thing is true, while their parents are telling them it's untrue or at least unproven.

I don't agree with any school treating any religion as fact. Schools are supposed to be purveyors of evidence-based learning. Belief in deities does not fall into that category.

AwaywiththePixies27 · 09/04/2017 17:26

I have worked in schools where parents of one faith have complained about children learning about other faiths.

Yes. We had this in the DCs last school. A right hooha when they decided to celebrate eid. Oddly enough I didn't see the Muslims kicking off when we later celebrated Christmas. Hmm

I think I'm rather agnostic nowadays but despite my huge background, the only thing I thought recently when DCs told me they were celebrating the Hindu festival was 'i need some cheap bright shirts from Primark'. They had a fab day!

I have not worked in a school where parents have complained about learning ABOUT Christianity or visiting churches

Agreed. Previous school used to bring the Minister in for all the religious festivals and take them out to said church for carol services etc.
I didn't even know their current school had such visits until DS told me about Rev 'Sally' who came to see them one week.

I have worked in schools where parents have issues with children having assemblies where they HAVE to worship God.

This. I grew up in a C of E primary (only school for miles) and we had to worship/pray/sing at every single morning assembly. My Mum also dragged us to Pentecostal church for years where we had to do similar every weekend.
I want my children to have the choice to. Not be forced to.

Oh - and you have an issue with parents telling children that God is not real. There are parents who have massive issues with teachers telling children God is real.

Or anyone else come to think of it. GrinTry having the Sunday school teacher causing uproar one year because they'd told a bunch of kids that Santa wasn't real. Confused

AwaywiththePixies27 · 09/04/2017 17:31

I don't like it when 6 year olds tell me with great certainty God doesn't exist as they can't have given the process due thought.

What if a 6yo told you God certainly did exist? Have they given the process due thought then?

squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 18:22

Purely anecdotely, I can say from personal experience that it is a terrible idea for a teacher to tell a very literal minded 6 year old that Jesus can make anything possible if you just believe enough. Especially a 6 year old who is obsessed with flying. Grin

AwaywiththePixies27 · 09/04/2017 18:35

squishy I had a very long conversation with DS (8) today. Him on the trampoline. Me sunning myself on the chair in the garden.

He went in to great lengths to explain to me how he'd be just fine if he jumped from space back to earth again. The outfits. The gravity and the barrier meant zilch to him. It would all be perfectly possibly as long as he had a long enough grapplehook. Grin

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 18:43

away you clearly didn't read the post properly where I said I would also find certainty the other way, troubling. My dd loved the idea of Jesus when she was 3, she thought he probably bossed Father Christmas around and could get more toys out of him by praying.

I don't think we're covering any new ground here but it's been interesting!

NoLotteryWinYet · 09/04/2017 18:47

jassy we'll have to agree to disagree, the Cadburys spokesperson saying that it was deliberate strategy is enough evidence for me to moderately disapprove. I may have to switch to green&blacks!

squishysquirmy · 09/04/2017 18:53

Away: Grin When bouncing on a trampoline as a child, it did fell like that might be possible! Like going really high on a swing, kicking the clouds and thinking that at any moment you will loop the loop.

JassyRadlett · 09/04/2017 19:46

Do you have a direct quote from the Cadbury's spokesperson?

The main ones I've seen are:
A Cadbury spokesman said that it was "simply not true" that Easter did not feature as it was mentioned a number of times on promotional materials, their website and their eggs.

"Our Easter Egg packaging also carries the word Easter and these products are only available at this special time of year," the spokesman added.

^"Our Easter partnership with the National Trust is also synonymous with Easter, and we make it clear throughout materials that it is an egg hunt, for families, at Easter."

and

The chocolate-maker said its Easter campaigns were given a different name every year.

It added: "It is clear to see that within our communications and marketing we clearly state the word Easter and include it in a number of promotional materials, including our website, where we do also promote our partnership with National Trust at this seasonal time of year.

"We invite people from all faiths and none to enjoy our seasonal treats, which can be found around Easter time."

The main promo is:

to wonder why the fuss about Easter and the national trust?
TheSpottedZebra · 09/04/2017 19:51

NoLottery I may have to switch to green&blacks!

Erm... They were bought by cadbury in 2005...

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