Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

I totally agree with the teachers posting on here. It's a nonsense to argue that teachers should let all students go to the toilet during lessons whenever they ask. I'd probably only have 2 students in each lesson if I did that while the rest were off having a fag somewhere!! There has to be some management of it and children over the age of 11 are more than capable of controlling their bodies. I don't let students go to the toilet unless they have a medical toilet pass. Clearly though if a student had a quiet word and told me they had a bad stomache ache and needed to go I'd let them. I've had lots of times when girls have given me a certain look and I've understood them enough to let them go too.

It's not about being evil and horrible- it's about managing classrooms and actually it's about safeguarding children by knowing where they are!

Lelloteddy:

Oh dear. Please think about what you are saying. Do you really think it is a good idea to say any student can leave a classroom at any time, simply by saying they need the toilet?

I do not lack empathy. But nor do I lack experience or basic common sense.

I think you're being a goady fucker now Trifle, it can happen to anyone at anytime and you're very, very lucky it hasn't happened to you.

I must admit, I never once left class to go to the toilet at secondary school. Unless there's an emergency or a medical reason, surely the majority of secondary school children should be able to time their toilet visits around lunch and breaks?

KinkyAfro please don't be offended, my description is what is normal if you don't have any bowel issues. I sympathise that you sometimes experience issues as you describe but if it is normal for you to have no warning of any need to go which is then suddenly an overwhelming urgency where you are lucky if you can avert an accident then you do actually have something wrong. Feel free not to seek medical assistance if you prefer but that doesn't change what is normal for most people.

Personally I regularly experience both kinds of situation as I tend to get occasional bouts of IBS-like symptoms for a few weeks at a time which thankfully recede and I return to normal function.

KinkyAfro:

Not even slightly. Not everyone who strongly disagrees with you is goading you. I am not.

trifle you are very lucky not to have ever experienced that urgency.
I would also assume that very few people would ever talk to you about their own mishap.
So saying that youve never met someone that it happened to only means that no one has ever talked to you about it, not that it never happened.

I used to be an operating theatre nurse. If the surgeon was operating alone and urgently needed the loo, they would cover the surgical field with a sterile towel, scrub out (take off gown and gloves), go to the loo, scrub up again, and come back in. However, they would not necessarily be able to stop immediately - they might have to wait until a suitable point in the surgery.

If the they were operating with an assistant, they might leave at the point where the assistant could finish alone, or could hold the fort until they got back. Similarly, the assistant could scrub out and leave, and the scrub nurse would step in and assist (hold retractors, cut sutures etc) u til the assistant returned.

If the scrub nurse needed to leave, a new scrub nurse would have to scrub up, and then both of them would do a swabs, sharps and instruments count before the first nurse scrubbed out and left.

I have been involved in incredibly long surgeries - ones that started at 9am and didn't finish until midnight, and the surgical teams rotated in and out so no-one did the full time with no breaks.

At 13 I asked once and if the teacher said no or ignored me I went anyway, damn the consequences. A 13 year old without SEN or disabilities/conditions should really, really, be able to know when they're about to shit themselves and react accordingly.

GreenPeppers:

Obviously I don't expect people to talk to me about their continence issues. I am saying that no student has ever soiled themselves in my lesson (I have refused permission to hundreds of teenagers). The only adult I have ever seen soil herself was 101 years old and I was on work experience in a care home. I was 15 (long time ago now). I know it happens and I know it must happen to people who don't talk about it. But it is so rare amongst otherwise healthy teenagers, with the desire to muck about so common by contrast, and the imperative to know where your students are so important, that it leads me to the conclusion that these policies, which seem harsh on the surface, have sound reasoning behind them. Disagree if you like.

Completely serious. I think the issue was the tampon was full and leaking - has that never happened to you?

I would assume she really couldn't wait because I doubt she would have done what she did if she wasn't. We didn't judge her though, I mostly remember we were all angry she had had to do that in class. I won't ever forget it.

If I was operating on someone I would hold it. If I couldn't and it meant harm to the patient I would soil myself before I walked out of, say, a heart op This must be the most stupid post ever. You would soil yourself in a sterile environment when someone was having surgery? Seriously. Unbelievable. I hope to God the staff in any theatre have more understanding of infection risks than you. I suppose we have to be thankful you didn't decide on a career in healthcare.

TwentyCups:

No. I change my tampons with the recommended regularity.

grannytomine:

Hold on. Before you launch in with how I am clearly an idiot, let's back up a second. If I was operating on someone and I had a sudden, inexorable urge to poo myself (I don't have such urges - I can usually wait), then of course I would soil myself rather than have them die on my operating table. The point is that I wouldn't need to do so. I would go beforehand and - as a perfectly sensible poster upthread has pointed out - if I needed to go I would wait for an appropriate moment in the surgery.

I don't see what is so stupid about that.

Well fairly clearly the child couldn't "hold it in" since I'm pretty certain no school child chooses to soil themselves in front of their peers so all of this talk of what they "should have done is irrelevant".

trifle your surgeon example is rather pointless but I am curious as to whether you would you soil yourself in front of your class if you got a sudden bout of food poisoning?

WhisperingLoudly:

No. I don't expect any of my students to soil themselves either. Where did I say I was happy to have my students sitting in their own shite? That is not the implication of my posts.

Disagree if you like

Oh I do. And interestingly my daughter's school manages quite well without such a ridiculous policy. As did the secondary I went to.

I know being sick isn't the same thing (though is very comparible to sudden onset diarrhea) but I remember one of my teachers in junior school once fled out of the lesson to be sick. So I imagine if a teacher felt they were going to crap themselves they would do the same thing. Best for everyone, surely?! Or do people really imagine a teacher would soil themselves/vomit infront of a class just to not leave the room?

Obviously its not ideal to leave a class full of pupils but if needs be..

trifle where did I say you did say that?!

The implication of your posts is that you're a rather unpleasant bully who cannot see beyond their own clearly limited experiences.

JacquesHammer:

Okay. My school would be a chaotic mess.

Trifleorbust, well if you can't see what is stupid about that statement it is pretty pointless discussing it but for a start that you wouldn't be operating alone, that surgeons don't have arrangements for normal bodily functions if they are undertaking long operations, that it would be in anyway acceptable to soil yourself in a sterile environment putting the patient at risk.

grannytomine:

This is futile. If you can't understand what I am saying, there is no point discussing it with you.

Nobody should be prevented from using the toilet. Especially not young children who may not have as much control.

I will be telling my children to ask politely, and if they are refused but feel they cannot wait until the next opportunity at break etc, then quietly get up and go anyway.

Any teacher who has an issue with this can deal with me.

WhisperingLoudly:

The implication of your post was that I would leave the classroom before soiling myself. I concede that I would. But why would you ask, unless you were also implying I wouldn't let my students do the same?

In answer to someone's question I hold my wee - it may be a little uncomfortable but I learned to control my bladder at the age of about 2. Some days I'm so busy o don't get to pee until 3. But by the sounds of it lots of parents would be happy for me to just abandon my class and hop off to the loo whenever. Mmmmm.

As I said, anyone desperate in my class can go in in return for leaving their phone with me. Seems to mean the urgency goes in most cases and for those really in need they throw the phone at me. Works a treat.