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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

1000 replies

NotTheMrMenAgain · 31/03/2017 12:21

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

OP posts:

Trifleorbust · 03/04/2017 18:27

kittybiscuits:

To do what?

Headofthehive55 · 03/04/2017 19:25

helena
If you are having difficulty holding your urine , frequency, urgency (inability to wait) then yes you should go and see your GP as those sorts of problems often can be helped. (Or it may be a sign of other problems)

catkind · 03/04/2017 20:11

Head, if on a one off occasion you have a sudden urgent need for the loo then no you do not need medical attention. If it is happening every day and you don't have a bug then yes you should talk to your GP. As far as i can recall from many hundreds of posts back, we have no reason to believe the case in the OP was anything other than a one off/bug/food poisoning type of incident.

Headofthehive55 · 03/04/2017 23:01

Obviously not if it's a one off no. I thought that would go without saying. However a one off episode would be of great interest to the health care team if you were going into hospital in the near future for any reason.

AmeliaLion · 04/04/2017 00:06

offred one of the many problems is that teachers are often not allowed to make reasonable adjustments based on professional judgement. Decisions are made by slt, and any deviation is seen as defiance and detrimental to the school ethos. In my school letting a student use the loo puts me at risk of being on the wrong side of the head - at best being a quiet word, at worst the dreaded 'capability measures' and the end of a career. I work in an academy where the governors are appointed by the head and the head is accountable to the governors.

I'm leaving the school because I can't tolerate the pressure teachers and students are being put under. I have no recourse other than walking away. I'm lucky because I'm in a shortage subject (and my students get good results) so this is an easy option for me - I have many colleagues who are stuck enforcing school rules they feel are unfair and are being blamed by parents for doing so.

My advice is simple - take issue with the school leadership who impose such school rules, don't assume the teacher is at all happy about it. She may simply be enforcing them out of fear for her job.

Dannythechampion · 04/04/2017 00:13

Totally agree Amelia.

Further, one of the problems of parents with schools is many think the rules should make an exception for their child. However the rules can't work like that.

If a school has problems with in lesson truancy it will clamp down on toilet breaks. If it has problems with vandalism, drugs, even clandestine meetings between lusty teens ( and they do happen), it will clamp down.

If in a class letting one kid go usually ends up with a whole load asking, and arguments about special treatment, no one goes.

This incident was unfortunate, and shouldn't have happened, but to blame the teacher is wrong.

lottachocca · 04/04/2017 08:48

This incident was unfortunate, and shouldn't have happened, but to blame the teacher is wrong.

What should have happened and who would you blame if it was your child?

MrsT2007 · 04/04/2017 08:50

The rules.
As set by management of the school.

Speak to the head of year. Minimum.

Offred · 04/04/2017 08:55

I know that and tbh I have said that, more than once.

Dannythechampion · 04/04/2017 11:16

"What should have happened and who would you blame if it was your child?"

No one to blame is there? This is the entire problem, an unfortunate incident, but no one really is to blame. If the teacher could have foreseen a child crapping themselves they'd obviously have let them go ASAP, if the child had made it utterly clear what was about to happen they'd have let them go.

But no, bash the teacher, bash all teachers.

catkind · 04/04/2017 13:29

Who's to blame?

If the system is such that a child can soil themselves without individual parties having made a mistake, then the system is wrong. That is what we're all struggling with about the situation I think.

It sounds to me like the teacher made an error of judgement not making an exception in this case. Most teachers on this thread have said they would use their judgement, some have even said they have to do this in defiance of the rules.

The child also made an error of judgement in not walking out anyway and taking the consequences of that. It's hard to blame them for that given how much obedience to teachers is dinned in. Which again I think is why some of us (those with timid kids?) have said we'll explicitly give them permission in the hope that in an emergency it'd over-ride the automatic obedience to teachers.

catkind · 04/04/2017 13:31

At least, I think it would mean the system is wrong. I don't think a child soiling themselves in class is acceptable collateral damage. I don't know what the answer is though, if there was a simple one the thread would have been a lot shorter.

CrumpettyTree · 04/04/2017 13:45

Maybe the kids who abuse loo breaks to go and vandalise loos, take drugs or have sex are to blame? Schools that don't have these issues don't need to have such strict rules about it.

splendide · 04/04/2017 13:50

Maybe the kids who abuse loo breaks to go and vandalise loos, take drugs or have sex are to blame? Schools that don't have these issues don't need to have such strict rules about it.

This is right I guess but i don't believe my well behaved child should shit himself because he's unfortunate enough to be at a school with badly behaved children. That's why I would encourage him, if it really was an emergency, to just leave and deal with the consequences later.

It's also why I am trying to save enough for private school if the alternative is an environment where there is so little respect for and from teachers that children aren't trusted to use the toilet appropriately.

CrumpettyTree · 04/04/2017 13:56

Dd's in her second year at her comp and I dont know what the rules are re going to the loo in lessons. She's never mentioned it. Her teachers have always seemed like reasonable, pleasant people in their dealings with her so far though. She's never had any complaints about them, so I'm guessing/hoping that if she had an emergency the systems in place would be fine.

JacquesHammer · 04/04/2017 14:40

But no, bash the teacher, bash all teachers

Why does a criticism of a particular teacher in a particular situation always get extrapolated out into a hatred of all teachers?

No-one in any job should be beyond criticism if the situation warrants

MrsT2007 · 04/04/2017 15:27

That's the point though.

Teacher doesn't let child out; problem with parents

Teacher does; problem with senior management for going against school policy.

Damned whatever you do

Dannythechampion · 04/04/2017 16:32

"Why does a criticism of a particular teacher in a particular situation always get extrapolated out into a hatred of all teachers?"

Because the criticism of the teacher is incorrect, this is a massively rare occurrence that all people involved would rather not have happened. Its highly likely that the teacher was just operating within the rules that are set by the school.

So many threads on here turn anti teacher its unbelievable, and the comments made here about teachers being power crazy etc go to show that.

JacquesHammer · 04/04/2017 17:04

Because the criticism of the teacher is incorrect

I am afraid I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. If the risk was a child soiling themselves or myself facing discipine with the school because I had allowed them to use a loo I know which I would pick

MrsT2007 · 04/04/2017 17:11

As do we all but if senior management set policy if nobody out without medical pass and you go against it then they'll hail the teacher over the coals.

Teachers can't do right for doing wrong.

Dannythechampion · 04/04/2017 17:19

"If the risk was a child soiling themselves or myself facing discipine with the school because I had allowed them to use a loo I know which I would pick"

Yes because this was the choice given to the teacher wasn't it? In fact the kid asked to go to the loo, was refused and had an accident.

"This is right I guess but i don't believe my well behaved child should shit himself because he's unfortunate enough to be at a school with badly behaved children"

Exceptionalism again. The rules only apply to everyone else, my child is good and therefore needs different rules.

MrsT2007 · 04/04/2017 17:29

Yes and the OP said all toilet trips are banned in the school unless child has medical pass.

Either way, whatever the teacher does is 'wrong' in someone's eyes.

Agree, teacher possibly may well have wanted the child to go out but all the same, if SMT say no loo trips, and you disobey then they potentially have you on a disciplinary

Dannythechampion · 04/04/2017 17:31

So child knows that toilet trips are banned yet hadn't gone between lessons, at lunch, or break?

Asks in lesson is told no, as they knew they would be.

Did they have a discreet word with the teacher?

catkind · 04/04/2017 17:31

Danny, I knew 2 teachers in my school career who seemed to be more about power/status than having any interest in teaching. One of those was seriously creepy (inappropriate touching etc). Out of maybe 100 of teachers I came across in some capacity that's loads of good teachers, but it does (did) happen.

If the teacher had realised the child was about to soil themselves would/should they have let the child out whatever the rules said? Yes. So they made an error of judgement. Albeit in a situation made difficult by management if there was indeed a no letting out policy (we don't know). I suppose one way round in that case might be for the teacher to do what some people suggested parents doing - point out that it's against the rules to leave but the door is not actually locked. I don't know how teachers would feel about that solution.

I guess we also don't know if this may have been a cry wolf situation for this particular pupil.

TheWise1 · 01/07/2023 09:59

That is the most nonsensical response I have read on this thread! I hope you experience stomach cramps followed by the most awful follow-through shits, when in a meeting or in an enclosed group gathering scenario. When you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go. You’d obviously deny your child….that much is apparent. You should remove this thread as it makes you sound like a total pillock!

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