Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

Depends. As a teacher I wouldn't deny a child who really needed the loo access, however i do the children who take the mick, are trying to catch up with friends who are out of lessons etc.

I don't think either that teachers should be expected to spend hours explaining things to parents. There should be dedicated staff for that.

Totally disagree. The relationship I build with parents is crucial, particularly in the case of some of my more challenging students.

Offred do you work in a school? Some of your assertions are way off the mark.

When I'm busy at work (most days) I often literally don't get a chance to go to the loo all day and with a healthy bladder and bowel you shouldn't need to go urgently. Your body sends a sign to your brain to warn it needs to go to the loo soon but if no medical issues waiting till the end of a lesson is totally acceptable.
However if you were unwell e.g. About to puke you'd surely just leg it out to the loo and use your common sense with a loose bowel?

I maintain that teachers who feel they/the school should not be reasonably accountable to children or parents are problematic teachers

What do you believe 'accountable' means? I am accountable for children's safety, exam results, progress - all part of my job description. If I don't show that I have done a reasonable job of ensuring my own success in safeguarding and educating children, I can be held back on the pay scale, monitored and ultimately dismissed.

What do you mean by being accountable other than that? I am confused.

I'm losing track about what this thread is about now. Is it just to criticise teachers trying to do our jobs?

Well then I would say you DO in fact think the school has a duty of reasonable accountability to the children. What on earth do you think reasonable accountability is if not that?

It is also a different matter re spending hours talking to parents if you have pastoral responsibilities. Not all teachers do and that would mean talking to parents is part of your job.

I don't see what reason you have for asking that question either other than just saying 'oh well as a service user rather than a governor or teacher you are not allowed to have a view'. That would be ridiculous anyway because as I am sure you will be aware schools need to have relationships with parents and pupils.

granny

Boney has made it pretty clear she is aware of pastoral issues and that she cares about them. Why are you being so insistent that she can't possibly have thought enough about it?

We care, people. I repeat what I said upthread, teachers don't tend to be cunts and we don't join because we hate children.

Yes, great I think it is.

That is the basics of what I mean by reasonably accountable but I would also include what is on the standard behaviour contract that DS and I signed when he started school - various expectations school had re his responsibilities as a pupil and mine as a parent and what he could expect from the school re fairness and accountability.

Offred:

But you seem to be implying that teachers aren't accountable because we enforce school policies, or because schools have policies in the first place. Those policies, you imply, make us unaccountable if children or parents don't want to follow them. That isn't what 'accountable to children' means, is it?

"I'd be very surprised if it wasn't investigated by the school. As a teacher I'd hope also that the parents ensured that the child visited the doctor to check that there wasn't an underlying medical issue which made holding on impossible"

Flowers
You seriously want ppl to attend a GP appointment to ask how/why they cant hold themselves for longer. You are bloody serious?! Offred is quite right. This would be completely ridiculous and an abuse of the NHS. Ive seen threads on here where posters in pain have been told to ride it out if its not that serious and not to waste a doctors time which is exactly what a GP is for and yet now parents are being told to take their DC to the GP if they cant piss or shit to order to suit a timetable.......something you would not expect your pet dog to do!
What is the expectation exactly. That the GP should prescribe Imodium or Urestamol.

Do some posters really not realize how ridiculous they sound.

Said it on this thread before but next time i see a thread moaning about ppl abusing GP appointments this is getting linked in

It was a teacher on here who said teachers are not accountable to children.

Offred:

Can you give an example?

I'm losing track about what this thread is about now. Is it just to criticise teachers trying to do our jobs?

For some posters it is. It's quickly turning into find a rule a child might break and outline a whole multitude of excpetional circumstances that may lead to the child breaking it. Then use that one situation to prove that its wrong to sanction children for that particular rule. Then someone points out the reality is that schools hsve things in place for extenuating circumstances and the automatic reply is "but what if school dont know?!?! Haha. Caught you out".

In a nutshell some people believe that its possible to be an effective teacher but not enforce rules because if tbe good will of kids isnt enough then yourr clearly not respected (and ignore that respect tends to come from being firm and fair. Teachers who have limited rules are liked but not respected).

Thankfully most people know its more nuanced than that.

Offred- no teacher on this thread is denying that a relationship with parents is crucial. In fact, I've said the opposite. You, on the other hand, feel that teachers shouldn't be contacting home unless they have some sort of special responsibility to do so.

Accountability comes with the authority to sanction. I am accountable to my bosses. I am interested in the views of my students as I want myself and my team to do the best we can for them but I am not accountable to them.

And my interest in your experience stems from your assertions and negativity towards people who work in this field day in day out. You speak with a depth of 'knowledge' that, I'm afraid, isn't based on fact. Seriously though I would recommend that you stand as a parent governor. Governing bodies are often crying out for volunteers and you could put your interest to good use.

grannytomine

As sure as I can reasonably be.

Are you sure that you haven't?

And I am simply saying that schools should not expect to be unaccountable to the parents or children for rules and policies that lead to a child being harmed.

One of the ways that might happen is a child being humiliated as in the op or it might be as with my DD who has SEN and is in primary and was let out of the school twice and allowed to run off.

It is not always about these kinds of issues. Sometimes there are serious safeguarding incidents in school that result because of serious failings in the school's management structures.

Helena- I think that if a child of secondary school age cannot manage their bowels then yes, there is a medical issue there. In 20+ years of teaching I've never experience this issue. It is, without a doubt, rare.

"my DD who has SEN and is in primary and was let out of the school twice and allowed to run off".

Do you not see the irony in your having an issue with teachers saying that they don't let students out of their lessons??

saying that schools should have fair rules and apologise/investigate when a child is harmed in school and that schools are reasonably accountable to parents and children is being negative towards teachers is it?

Trifleorbust

When does forgetting turn into being careless?

That is the million dollar question, I'm sure some of the more vocal posters on here will be willing to give an answer.

As a teacher I am accountable:
To the children
To the parents
To my colleagues
To SLT
To the governors
To the MAT council
To the government
To ofsted
And most importantly, to everyone on MN who has an opinion or some advice about how I should or shouldn't teach the children in my care.

Did I miss anyone?

There is no irony. DD is in primary. I have no issue with them allowing her to leave the class when she needs to but I have an issue with the receptionists buzzing the door open and allowing her to run out into the street.

Can you not see the difference?

I think that would depend on the circumstances of the door being opened. If, for instance, someone had been arriving at that moment, the receptionist didn't see your child there and opened the door for the visitor allowing your child access to it you can see how that might have occurred. Had she been in a classroom, it wouldn't/couldn't have done.

To be fair, you have a primary aged child. Secondary schools are very different places with very many more students meaning that they have to function very differently.

Pooing yourself one time when you have a D&V bug and have been told you are not allowed to go to the toilet is not an indication a child has not got control over their bowels and needs medical assessment flowers.

If you took said child to the GP they would ask about what is normal for the child and as an isolated incident it wouldn't medically justify any investigation.

It's pretty ironic that teachers feel they can dole out advice about medicine but parents cannot have opinions about schools...