Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

"schools not being accountable to anyone at all.."

Schools are accountable to a myriad of people. Long gone are the days when that wasn't the case.

And TBF schools have a great deal more autonomy over how they implement regulations and guidance than for example GPs do and a lot less accountability. This flexibility can result in great innovations or in arbitrary abuses. I just will never be led to believe that schools should not be accountable for the consequences of things that happen in schools just because they are schools.

Is that a thing MrsT? Many of us have no choice whatsoever about sending our children to school or which school to send them to. HSAs have no force and you don't need to sign them if you don't choose to anyway. We broadly try to be supportive of school even where we may disagree because that's the best thing for our children's education, but I never signed up to unthinking support for everything.

Can I put it another way teachers? If your child was the child in the OP, they were for whatever reason truly desperate and the teacher had misjudged it - if you could advise your child in that situation, would you advise them to stay or walk out?

Reading some of the parents comments and the glimpse of the mindset behind them demonstrates why I have a stress headache most days...

Yes me too. At the same time as complaining about rules that were in contravention of the guidance from DfE and could be considered illegal if acted on I sent an email to the welfare officer supporting the school re the ofsted inspection and I told DS to abide by the rules and I would speak to school about my concerns about them because that is the proper way of doing things.

I tell my child to go at break times and to mention quietly to the teacher at the start of the lesson if they are feeling ill.

Offred, I'm interested to know what body you feel needs to exist to monitor schools and their autonomy over setting of rules appropriate for their own environment/pupils. Can I ask whether you are a parent governor or whether you have any experience of working in schools?

It's wearing for a parent to read some of the disdainful attitudes of some of the teachers towards our children TBH but this is part of what I mean - schools parents and children should be able to work together not be fighting against each other which is what results when any of the parties involved in that relationship starts behaving unreasonably and yes, sometimes it IS schools/teachers that behave unreasonably to think it is NEVER schools or teachers would be as ridiculous as thinking it is never children or parents.

No body. I think schools should expect to be reasonably accountable to parents and pupils. Sometimes they feel that they are not and are only accountable to governors and regulatory bodies.

I tell my child to go at break times and to mention quietly to the teacher at the start of the lesson if they are feeling ill.
That works well for me.
No issue with students coming in and having a quiet word. Even if they're in and start to feel unwell i say 'have you got a drink, do you need some fresh air etc".

Im very much in the "keep them in class unless its an emergency" and when a child comes in feeling unwell they keep their journal open ready so I can sign it and let them out quickly.

The thing on this thread is that some people seem to think teachers exervising discretion is automatically going to lead to accidents. Im also of the opinion that if a parent had an issue Id like them to discuss it with me adult to adult and not go around (lile some posters on here) just tell their kids to walk out of class or theyll be in telling teachers to fuck off and reporting people.
I find that chatting reasonably to readonable parents leads to an amicable outcome. Parents telling their kids they can kick off and that theyll be reporting the teacher tends to lead to attitude issues as the child goes through school (e.g. one i had a nice student who wouldnt do homework because home would give notes, wouldnt do detentions for it because home would excuse them it, minimal classwork because they knew home would tell thrm no sanctions applied to them. They are now in their gcse year and spend most of their time in the internal behaviour unit out of class and being excluded. Nice child, but home's insistence at undermining school has created a situation where that child is probably not going yo do as well as they could because theyve never backed school and never been held acvountable. Give it a year and they'll be demanding intervention done by staff for no pay to sort out the mess their lack of support created )

Unless I have missed it you are now changing the narrative to suit your purpose.

If a child had a pen that exploded or was running out why would I punish them.

If I child persistently turns up without the correct equipment why should I provide it?
More importantly why should the child get away with it?

And before we get on to the "a good teacher would", do you have any idea of how much money a teacher spends on equipment that should be proved by by parents?

And FYI children with no equipment often use that as an excuse to disrupt the class.*

Have you ever thought why a child might not have equipment? I knew a family when I was growing up, big family think 10 plus, dad never worked nor did mum (to be fair to her she was pregnant or looking after babies most of the time). The children were underfed, it was clear as day to look at them, they wore scruffy clothes, had no uniform or PE kit. A couple of them were really good at sport but they were constantly punished for not having kit so missed out on sport. When the older child I knew started work they bought PE kits for all the kids still at school. Their lives were shit and did a kind teacher give them a glimpse of better things? Did they hell.

One of my sons had a friend who was unwanted and dumped with his grandparents when his mother married. He was a good footballer, he joined the team my son played for and the manager bought him boots, we all gave him lifts to games, included him in celebrations at McDs when they won a match. I think we gave him a glimpse of a better life.

I'm not saying teachers, or football managers, should buy kids kit but punishing them for something they have no control over?

If I was to tell you how much of my working day is spent contacting parents/carers and having meetings with them to discuss their children I think you'd be surprised. Ultimate accountability comes from the parents ability to report issues to the governors/Ofsted if needed and, of course, to remove their child and their child's funding from the school.

I actually don't think that teachers should be accountable to pupils other than the obvious accountability which comes on results day at the end of year 11/13. We are, after all, adult professionals who, hopefully, know what we're doing and deserve at least a little respect from the children we teach don't you think?

granny

Yes, most schools will have thought about possible pastoral issues. And no we won't punish children for that. We'll try and help the child.

But rules are written for the people who cannot follow them!! The people who suffer are the honest ones that can and do follow them. As a teacher I knew my classes. There were always certain people you could not trust. Rightly or wrongly. However, if that had been me and it was someone that had shown they were a trust worthy pupil. I would have let them go. If I then found out they were fibbing. Then I would have called their parents. I have seen many girls try the it's my period Sir. Some who I believed, others who try it all the time I did not.

I can see both sides. However, if a school has that policy and the pupils know this, then they also need a policy of how you deal with girls, who have very different needs and timings for a toilet. I would not want my daughter to have that kind of embarrassment.

Granny- I think about it often actually as I work in a very deprived area. As I said upthread, I do provide pens and equipment often. Children are given PE kits and even uniform when needed and on one recent occasion a child was bought a several outfits for home use due to family circumstances. I experience it all around me but we do sell pens for 10p a go and I will also tell you that finding a child with no mobile phone is a vanishingly rare experience.

Yes, the can be safe to stop for short periods. In fact if an op>6 hrs probably would plan in a 15 min break.

For the record too I will add that I've never yet given out a detention for not having a pen. To be honest I'd rather hand over a pen and get on with the business of the lesson.

I don't think 'hopefully' cuts it or that results in exams are all that there is to children's expectations of school.

I don't think either that teachers should be expected to spend hours explaining things to parents. There should be dedicated staff for that.

I maintain that teachers who feel they/the school should not be reasonably accountable to children or parents are problematic teachers who cannot realistically expect parents and children to be accountable to them or work with them.

If I child persistently turns up without the correct equipment why should I provide it?
More importantly why should the child get away with it

Teachers saying kids wouldn't be punished for not having equipment but this is what was said, so why should the child get away with it? Some schools might be different but I know local schools where children aren't given clothes, food, PE kit or anything else when it is clear that they aren't being supported at home.

In fact having that attitude would be in direct contravention of most behaviour contracts I have seen which usually set out the mutual expectations re respect which apply when attending school.

*If your child was the child in the OP, they were for whatever reason truly desperate and the teacher had misjudged it - if you could advise your child in that situation, would you advise them to stay or walk out?"

Walk out. BUT I would advise them that I would support whichever punishment for that the teacher deemed fair. My child should go at break or lunch.

"How is she going to get a job if she can't accept authority?"

How is she going to KEEP a job if she is left with permanent bladder/bowel issues through having to hold herself and/or severely limiting her liquid intake through FIVE YEARS of high school so that she wouldnt have to go as often.

grannytomine

I have been instrumental in getting the school to provide equipment for children through the correct funds.
This includes (and is not exclusive to)
stationary
paper
standard uniform
Shoes
PE kits
food
trips out
exercise books for exams

So the answer is Yes I have thought of it

and no in the same way that I wouldn't prevent someone with a medical condition going to the toilet I wouldn't punish someone with a reason for not having the equipment (and this includes when a parent rings up and says can we make an exception because the child has forgotten it.)

I wouldn't punish someone with a reason for not having the equipment (and this includes when a parent rings up and says can we make an exception because the child has forgotten it.)

Every time or just the first time? When does forgetting turn into being careless?

Offred, you didn't answer my question about your experience of working in schools.

By the way, some teachers ARE more likely to ring parents- usually those who are further up the pecking order or who have pastoral responsibility. I also find managing behavioural issues becomes easier when direct contact is made with home and I think most parents appreciate speaking directly to their child's teacher when there's an issue.
I'll also tell you that a regular part of my job is undertaking 'student voice' activities where I ask students how things are going in their lessons with the staff I manage. I do act on this where it's appropriate to do so ("I don't like Mr x cause he makes us work too hard" for example would probably not be much of an issue!).

BoneyBack, but you might not know that the parents are refusing to buy them stuff, the child might be to embarrassed to say. Are you sure you've never punished a child unfairly?