Is it legal for a teacher to deny a child access to a toilet?

[NotTheMrMenAgain]

I have a friend whose DC, age 13, recently soiled themselves in class because the teacher repeatedly refused to allow them to go to the toilet (and were fairly dismissive about it, by the sound of it). It wasn't a small mishap - the rest of the class were dismissed and my friend called to collect DC.
Understandably, DC is mortified and horrified and my friend very upset and angry. There's been a verbal apology from the head of year to my friend, who said how upset the teacher involved was - but no apology from the teacher to the DC - the teacher had since ignored the child/incident.
AIBU to think this simply isn't good enough? My heart goes out to the poor kid, who knows what kind of mark it will leave and what sort of bullying/mockery it will set them up for.
Is it against a child's basic rights to deny them access to a toilet? It seems like cruelty to me. It this a common policy at secondary school? Apparently they aren't allowed to pop to the loo in between classes, only at break/lunch. When I was a teenager my periods were heavy and I wouldn't have made it til break without an accident!

Great. No-one has said children are all perfect little angels who should never be punished for their bad behaviour.

This issue is entirely about rules which are disproportionate, unfair, unaccountable, illegal, burdensome etc. Not that schools shouldn't have rules or standards.

And CLEARLY a rule that has resulted in a child pooing himself in class is one that is being implemented poorly or is just plain wrong...

Offred, I, and I suspect most of us other mere mortal teachers on this thread, would happily challenge you to a day working in a tough secondary school. You might well change your mind on the value of some rules and sanctions.

Offered to you are way too invested in this thread.

As a teacher if that happened to you you would have a union to stand up for you and employment law to protect you - what do children have?

I might well if it was my job yes because I would be bound up in the system but that doesn't make it good or right when something like this is the result.

As a child or a parent quite frankly the burden of regulations and oversight from ofsted is not our problem as much as it is the teacher's and the school's problem.

Offred, we actually know very little about the circumstances faced by this young man. I think you're making huge judgements about the teacher and the school, all schools actually, based on a "friend of a friend" tale. I am confident that the school will have investigated it and taken whatever view they deem appropriate.

So you just assume that that's always the case?

And the rules and sanctions actually have very little to do with Ofsted and a whole lot more to do with keeping children safe and in a position to be educated.

A child should never poo themselves in class after being refused the toilet.

That's the judgement I am making.

I don't think I need to know the circumstances of the teacher or the school to say that is an unacceptable thing to happen to a child.

I don't think anyone would disagree but there's so much you don't know about the story that it is ridiculous to demand the teacher's head on a plate over it!

I don't think anyone would disagree but there's so much you don't know about the story that it is ridiculous to demand the teacher's head on a plate over it!

Offred

My point is that having a pen that has exploded is different to not having a pen at all.

Rules that are about keeping children safe and promoting learning are one thing. Rules that resulted in a child poking themself in a classroom are not ones that are being properly implemented or are rules that are just plain wrong to start with and yes there are examples of rules like that in my son's high school. Rules that directly contravene the law and the guidance on schools' disciplinary powers provided by DfE. Schools shouldn't just be assumed to always be fair and reasonable in everything they do and people should not be told to not complain if they think they are. That doesn't keep children safe.

Boney - I understand that because it is the point I am making. It shouldn't be dealt with the same way as children who are deliberately misbehaving or how do you deal with the ones who are deliberately misbehaving.

And to be fair I have not demanded the teacher's head on a plate. I've simply said that essentially that school rules should be fair, legal and proportionate and that if they are not there will be consequences and that people should be able to complain about that.

Can you not understand that the rule that says that students are not allowed to leave the classroom during a lesson are, in fact, rules that are about keeping people safe?

Unfortunately in cases like this teachers are often between a rock and a hard place with trying to implement rules handed from above and dealing with pupils and parents who complain and are often scapegoated when it goes badly.

I know that. That is why I have not 'demanded the teacher's head on a plate' but equally I don't think it is helpful to act as though schools are always fair and never do anything wrong.

Of course I understand that having rules that say you can't leave the classroom is a rule about keeping pupils safe and also about making sure disruption is minimised but if that is enforced so strictly that a pupil with a tummy bug is denied medical treatment and poos themselves in class then that is not an example of a rule keeping children safe.

Have the people demanding that all children be allowed to use the loo whenever they like considered the main issue is often the children who deliberately use the time to damage the school and considered apportioning SOME of the blame on parents? Schools need rules like this to deal with the issues that we face on a daily basis. If a loo is damaged, the block is then put out of use, meaning that more children are negatively affected due to this. We don't enjoy making children suffer, but by making them wait it can prevent others suffering.
Also, if a child is let out of my class and then assaulted by another student in the loo, I will be held accountable for this.
Not all schools fave issues like these, I currently work on a 'naice' private girls school where I can let them out for the loo, but even then it's one at a time and at my discretion. Not straight after break or lunch, and not when they are in the middle of something.
The school I used to work in had co at any serious criminal damage done throughout lessons by children who had been allowed out.
It's not always the fault of the teacher.
However, discretion does need to be applied if possible.

I think that schools do their best, actually, to be fair. We also, in the main, strive to keep children safe, interested in learning and ready to enter the "real" world as responsible and capable adults. X30, every hour.

If it was my DS I would expect them to investigate how this happened and review the rules in light of what happened as a basic requirement at least. What exactly is wrong with that? If the response was simply 'those are the rules' I'd be really upset.

Of course most schools do their best. I don't think anyone is saying they don't. I'm simply saying that actually schools not being accountable to anyone at all just because they are schools is not good for anyone. If something like this happens it should result in the school investigating what they can do to prevent it happening again and an apology to the child who in this case was clearly and obviously not messing around or trying to disrupt the class.

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't investigated by the school. As a teacher I'd hope also that the parents ensured that the child visited the doctor to check that there wasn't an underlying medical issue which made holding on impossible.

When I was in P4 (8 years old) I as refused to go. We had to stand at the door and the teacher would nod if you were allowed. I stood and stood and got more and more desperate and the teacher continued to ignore me. I then wet myself and was so embarrassed.
I've always said to my DD if the teacher says no then she 100% has my permission to walk out and go to the toilet.
I hate hearing things like this.
That poor girl.