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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU? Neglect? Fraud?

148 replies

Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 01:49

My parents live with my grandmother, and have done for the last ten years. My DGM is 89, my DM is 64 and my DD is 66.

My parents don't pay rent or bills and have a substantial property which is attached to my DGM's house which is their private area. They go away a three times a year for a total of 12 weeks, and while away spend a lot of money of luxury items. I'd guess they spend around £25000 a year on all this and this has been going on for the last 8-9 years.

Neither of them work or have done for the last ten years. I don't know exactly what their personal income is but they have standard pensions from a government employer which have only just started and I have no idea what their income was previous to this.

They make meals and do basic housekeeping for my DGM but have never had anything more challenging to deal with other than a couple of hospital visits due to falls she has had in the last year and small tasks occasionally.

DGM broke her ankle after falling down just after they left for a five week cruise. My brother went round to visit her and found that she had been suffering at home for 24 hours after she broke her ankle. She ended up in hospital for 3 weeks and was only allowed home when my DM and DF got home. My brother and me visited her while she was in hospital and helped to get her home. We love her very much and we were happy she was back at home.

We both have other caring, family and work commitments so do not have much free time but have offered to house sit my parents house to keep an eye and be around but they won't let either of us stay or even have a key for emergencies. It's a remote isolated house so that makes it harder.

Our parents returned and immediately told us both that they are going on a safari in October for 5 weeks. My brother and me decided that we would no longer be prepared to cover up our parents lavish lifestyle to my DGM anymore if they are prepared to go away and leave her in danger again. We have questioned between ourselves how they can afford all this stuff for years but have been persuaded by our parents to keep it a secret from my DGM in order to keep the peace.

So we told our parents that we are not prepared to keep the trips and the other money stuff a secret from our DGM anymore. We have said that they cannot leave her again without any support. They have already implied to her that me and DBRO were trying to get her put into a home while they were away. We feel like they are threatening her with this subtly as she wants to her to stay in her own house until she dies, and she told us her wishes over and over again while she was in hospital. We want this for her as well she is very happy there.

We are worried that she is in a vulnerable position living with them and want to help her. We think it's possible that my parents have been defrauding and / or bullying her in some way and if we bring it up with DGM that she will be extremely upset and hurt and in a very difficult position. However she is extremely bright and lived through a lot worse and very capable of sorting out an issue if there is one - for now anyway.

So we have contacted DGM to arrange to meet up with and gently try and find out if there's any worries on her side, but she has said she's too busy and there's a lot going on. In the meantime our parents have said they have everything sorted out and we needn't bother ourselves anymore. It feels like they're isolating her from us and now I'm even more concerned about her.

I am posting to ask for advice before I contact adult safeguarding or social services as I'm not even sure that's going to be in GM best interest long term

OP posts:
CoolCarrie · 30/03/2017 13:17

Have your parents possibly had equity release on the house to allow them to live the high life? Who owns the house?

Procrastinator1 · 30/03/2017 13:18

Not sure you can get a copy of the will unless your GM agrees.

Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 13:19

*How was your relationship with your DM & DF before all of this OP?

Does DM have form for being difficult and/or not wanting either of her children in her home unless expressly invited?*

Our relationship isn't particularly close there have been issues in the past but nothing too serious. Yes she has form for being difficult in all sorts of areas and has never let us have a key to her place

OP posts:
CoolCarrie · 30/03/2017 13:22

Park the car away from the house and walk up the drive, that way they won't have any warning

Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/03/2017 13:23

You don't need anyone's permission to get a copy of a will, Procrastinator; with very rare exceptions (royals, for example) they're regarded as public documents and are openly available

Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 13:27

Foureyes my Dbro asked if he could keep her car key while she was in hospital. My parents have a spare key and they are home now. We have raised concerns about her driving previously.

She could not walk when she returned home and agreed with us she could not drive due to her ill health. That issue has still not been resolve and we are worried she will hurt herself or someone else.

There have been 3 serious RTA's locally recently one involving a friend of her grand daughter and another involving her neighbour and she understood our concerns at the time.

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/03/2017 13:33

Our relationship isn't particularly close there have been issues in the past but nothing too serious

Here's another thought: If they really have got GM to sign her assets over to them and blown the lot, that would obviously mean there wouldn't be anything left for you and your DB. For that matter, they might even have remortgaged their own place and blown that too

So is there any possibility at all that they simply don't want you to know, out of fear - justified or not - over how either of you would take this?

SlinkyTink · 30/03/2017 13:34

It's a really tricky situation but as FourEyes suggests it is entirely possible that the GM is happy with how things are. It sounds dodgey as hell but your parents could easily have convinced themselves that it's all ok. You GM is being looked after and all they are doing is enjoying money that they think they will be going to get anyway. If the GM isn't being deprived then they might not feel it's wrong.... better they have it than the tax man Hmm.

We have a similar situation with DHs brother having a shared credit card with his Mother 'for emergencies' . She knows she is being ripped off a bit but refuses to let DH do anything about it. It's really irritating but it's her choice. My BIL visits her and does chores for her so although he takes money without her permission I think he thinks he deserves it. As you can imagine it really, really irritates me. Angry

halcyondays · 30/03/2017 13:36

I can't think of any good reason why they wouldn't want you to have a key for emergencies, especially when your gm has already had a fall while they were on a 5 week holiday.

GreenPeppers · 30/03/2017 13:38

There is another possibility.
My gran had quite a bit of money but was also still quite keen in supporting her dcs.
So she gave a lot of money to her dcs whenever they asked. She did so very willingly and knew what she was doing. It was just much more important for her than keeping enough money for care home etc..
On the top of it, she really wanted to avoid going in a care home so was plannning her future wo it iyswim.

So it is entirely possible that your gran is 'helping' your parents, to compensate for their time and efforts supporting her (and avoiding something she really doesn't want - the care home). And is doing so willingly. This is not something you will be easily go against TBH.

Are your mum/dad the only child she had? What are other possible siblings saying about the situation?

Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 13:40

Puzzled.

Yes I suspect this is the case as well. If this has happened I can only guess my DGM would be very unhappy as it possibly isn't how she would wish her substantial financial legacy to be distributed.

We honestly have no idea as we have always respected and admired her ability to deal with her own finances. We wouldn't dream of asking her about her will. DGM has always said she wants to make sure we and her GG children are 'looked after'

Unfortunately if we do ask DGM any questions I think our DP's will be in her ear about us being after her money / wanting to put her in a home.

OP posts:
Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 13:45

Any of these explanations could be the case but as it stands our DPs are refusing to discuss it with us which seems suspicious as they have nothing to hide if they've done nothing wrong.

Our DM is an only child - no siblings and no other family apart from Dbro, myself and our children. DGM has no living close relatives apart from us and does not count DP (stepdad) as a close relative.

OP posts:
TheRealCurlySue · 30/03/2017 13:53

I completely agree OP why all the secrecy of they have done nothing wrong? That is what I keep going back to. Hopefully you will get to the bottom of this one way or the other and do your best by DGM. The more of your posts I read though, I suspect that she has been taken advantage of by people who are meant to have her best interests at heart Sad

Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/03/2017 13:57

as it stands our DPs are refusing to discuss it with us which seems suspicious as they have nothing to hide if they've done nothing wrong

Overall that's how I'd feel about it myself, though it's true that some aren't quite as keen on being "open", especially if they already have form for being awkward

None of it explains their reluctance for you to be keyholders, though; after all, if they want to blow all the money you'd think they'd be glad for family to help out instead of perhaps having to pay carers at some point. They needn't necessarily worry about you finding any "incriminating" paperwork either, as surely it could all be put away carefully - or even taken back to their own home?

whereiscaroline · 30/03/2017 14:06

Did they have a house which they sold before moving in with your DGM? Could they be spending that money, if so, in the knowledge that one day they will have your DGMs home?

IJustWantABrew · 30/03/2017 14:10

You mentioned your dp want to have a meeting with your brother. Is it not possible for your brother to agree to this, arrange a nice meal away from the house and for you to pop in and see your grandmother?
Do your parents live an extravagant lifestyle. You mentioned they had civil service jobs, did they previously live frugally?
Are your parents the sort who would pay for everything on a credit card/loans.
I hope for your grandmothers sake nothing untoward is going on and your parents are just really savvy with their holidays, however, more I read from this thread the worse it sounds.

BonnyScotland · 30/03/2017 14:13

I'm almost afraid to find out what they've been doing OP.. I'm nervous for you... I hate things like this x

Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 14:15

Spoke to land registry on phone. They told me over the phone that there are no mortgages, secured loan or charge on the property. So it is owned outright by DGM. I haven't got a copy of the title yet as I stupidly paid one of those 3rd party sites instead of the official government one.

They had no equity or savings when they moved in with our GPs this money seems to be coming from thin air. If they had remortgaged or got a secured loan it should show on the land registry. It's all very worrying

OP posts:
Foureyesarebetterthantwo · 30/03/2017 14:19

Surely the money is coming from their pensions and/or what your GM is giving them? They live rent and bill free so other than food, it's all spending money (or ideally saving money but they don't seem that way inclined!)

They are actually quite financially insecure, in terms of not owning a property themselves, if your GM decided to throw them out they would not be able to stop this.

Isn't it good that there's been no equity release or remortgaging going on, and that your GM owns everything?

Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 14:21

IJustWantABrew they have asked him to come round tonight. He's saying not without me.

They would think it really strange and out of character if he invited them out on their own right now as their guard is up and we are trying to keep calm and quietly get some information

OP posts:
Original poster
Shwangalangadingdong · 30/03/2017 14:27

Foureyes.

Yes I agree that it is good news in a way. I really don't think that their income could possibly cover their outgoings though and if they did why would they hide it?

Neither myself or Dbro have ever hassled them for money or loans we can support ourselves there would be no need to keep it all a huge secret and react like this if everything was above board

OP posts:
Procrastinator1 · 30/03/2017 14:30

Puzzled Before probate?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/03/2017 14:34

there would be no need to keep it all a huge secret and react like this if everything was above board

Short of some folks' extremely private natures, this is true - and a desire for privacy probably wouldn't involve meeting with your DB, especially now he's said he won't go without you

How about your stepfather's role in all this? I know you said they had no assets when they moved in with GM - presumably they were renting before? - but is there anyone he might be leaning on for cash?

BonnyScotland · 30/03/2017 14:36

who has access to your DGM Bank Accounts ? who controls the Cards etc to those accounts... does she now have internet banking ? check money may be transferred between accounts.... without her knowledge... x

Jng1 · 30/03/2017 14:41

No right to see anyone's will before they die iirc. It's irrelevant anyway - it could change!