AIBU? Neglect? Fraud?

[Shwangalangadingdong]

My parents live with my grandmother, and have done for the last ten years. My DGM is 89, my DM is 64 and my DD is 66.

My parents don't pay rent or bills and have a substantial property which is attached to my DGM's house which is their private area. They go away a three times a year for a total of 12 weeks, and while away spend a lot of money of luxury items. I'd guess they spend around £25000 a year on all this and this has been going on for the last 8-9 years.

Neither of them work or have done for the last ten years. I don't know exactly what their personal income is but they have standard pensions from a government employer which have only just started and I have no idea what their income was previous to this.

They make meals and do basic housekeeping for my DGM but have never had anything more challenging to deal with other than a couple of hospital visits due to falls she has had in the last year and small tasks occasionally.

DGM broke her ankle after falling down just after they left for a five week cruise. My brother went round to visit her and found that she had been suffering at home for 24 hours after she broke her ankle. She ended up in hospital for 3 weeks and was only allowed home when my DM and DF got home. My brother and me visited her while she was in hospital and helped to get her home. We love her very much and we were happy she was back at home.

We both have other caring, family and work commitments so do not have much free time but have offered to house sit my parents house to keep an eye and be around but they won't let either of us stay or even have a key for emergencies. It's a remote isolated house so that makes it harder.

Our parents returned and immediately told us both that they are going on a safari in October for 5 weeks. My brother and me decided that we would no longer be prepared to cover up our parents lavish lifestyle to my DGM anymore if they are prepared to go away and leave her in danger again. We have questioned between ourselves how they can afford all this stuff for years but have been persuaded by our parents to keep it a secret from my DGM in order to keep the peace.

So we told our parents that we are not prepared to keep the trips and the other money stuff a secret from our DGM anymore. We have said that they cannot leave her again without any support. They have already implied to her that me and DBRO were trying to get her put into a home while they were away. We feel like they are threatening her with this subtly as she wants to her to stay in her own house until she dies, and she told us her wishes over and over again while she was in hospital. We want this for her as well she is very happy there.

We are worried that she is in a vulnerable position living with them and want to help her. We think it's possible that my parents have been defrauding and / or bullying her in some way and if we bring it up with DGM that she will be extremely upset and hurt and in a very difficult position. However she is extremely bright and lived through a lot worse and very capable of sorting out an issue if there is one - for now anyway.

So we have contacted DGM to arrange to meet up with and gently try and find out if there's any worries on her side, but she has said she's too busy and there's a lot going on. In the meantime our parents have said they have everything sorted out and we needn't bother ourselves anymore. It feels like they're isolating her from us and now I'm even more concerned about her.

I am posting to ask for advice before I contact adult safeguarding or social services as I'm not even sure that's going to be in GM best interest long term

so your parents live in a house attached to your grandmothers but banned you and/or your brother from moving into the seperate house that they don't own to look after her?

This sounds really odd.

I think I would tread softly, softly, because your grandmother is now resisting

Yes, I agree this makes sense; after all, the very last thing you need is for GM to shut you down completely. Maybe pop round "casually" with a bunch of blooms one day - which would make it hard for her to turn you away - and see if a general chat either puts your mind at rest or makes it clear you need to take further action?

By the way, I didn't think deliberate deprivation of assets (to avoid care home fees) is actually illegal as such ... isn't it just that Social Services will then assess the finances as if the money is still there and insist on payment via a charge on the house or whatever?

I understand it's frustrating that the next holiday will be September, and hopefully you will have better access to her before then. Your parents will presumably cool off eventually over your comments. You play nicey nicey just to get better access.

I think you need to research this thoroughly before you talk to her anyway. Who owns the properties, are there loans and who took them out.

^ You could play nicey nicey - that is meant to say.

Just go round. Turn up with flowers and tell dgm that you've missed her and wondered how her ankle's doing.

I assume your parents are concerned that a carer may befriend DGM and discover what they're up to

Bingo.

One way your parents could have got richer is if your GM transferred assets to them say 10 years ago to avoid inheritance tax (which has to be paid if the transfer was from less than 7 years ago on death). This is not an illegal thing to do and I know several families who have done it, preferring their children to effectively inherit lump sums earlier and not wait and then have it heavily taxed. I also know of relatives who did equity release and then shared some of that money with their children.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that many people do want their children to have their money, not the tax man/care homes and may be happy to give it earlier in the proceedings than would be the case if they had high care needs or died.

As long as they have capacity and abide by the law, these schemes are legal and nice for the children!

The 'lying' is interesting as they don't lie they are going on holiday, just the destination/type of holiday. That does suggest that your GM would think it fine to go 5 weeks camping in France (ugh!) but not to go to South Africa which she might perceive as dangerous or on a cruise and out of reach.

Ultimately it seems sad that at a time in her life where she needs more support, your GM is getting less. Many older people are terrified of being put in a home, and my guess is that this isn't just driven by your parents suggestion, but her own fears about when they are away and what happened last time. If you do get to speak to her, talk about how you will support her to stay at home and get more care at home so that this is crystal clear to her.

What a difficult situation, she is pretty elderly though and the status quo will not continue indefinitely (as she will probably get ill again).

You might also want to find out if your mother has got Power of Attorney for your GM's affairs; here's how to do it: www.gov.uk/find-someones-attorney-or-deputy

Also a further link about what can and cannot be done under POA: www.nhs.uk/Conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/Pages/lasting-power-of-attorney.aspx

This sounds very hard OP. I agree with what others said, you need to gently befriend your GM, without mentioning your parents. I would also try and borrow your GMs keys so you can get one cut either for yourselves or for a PIN accessible key safe - if she falls there will need to be access to the house to pick her up again...

Sorry you're going through this. Agree you need to just turn up and see how she is in the first instance. Let her know subtly that you're there to help if she needs it.
Would she trust you to let you look into her financial affairs? Is she savvy in that respect?

That does suggest that your GM would think it fine to go 5 weeks camping in France (ugh!) but not to go to South Africa which she might perceive as dangerous or on a cruise and out of reach

Or it suggests that they need to keep the full expense secret for reasons of their own. It wouldn't take longer to get back from camping in the S of France if you're driving (and how else would you transport the gear) than a flight from SA.

But I agree there are legitimate ways they could have come by the money - if they own their property they are free to re-mortgage or take equity release. Equally GM could have given them a sum.

If she has done the latter she may not be impressed with it being blown on lavish holidays.

Do your parents have POA? I would be concerned if they do I would be very concerned if an 89 year old with a history of falling didn't have a POA, and typically the person given them to is their child/close relative. This of itself would not be concerning to me, unless I felt they were abusing it. POA's are only activated if the person loses consent, it is a nightmare if an elderly person say has dementia and no POA as no-one can sort out their financial affairs or make health-care decisions in line with their wishes. POA's are essential for older people, not sinister of themselves.

Foureyes I agree it isn't a problem as long as they are managing her affairs in her best interests.

I have applied to find out if they have POA as well as land registry. No idea why they couldn't just tell us exactly what is going on though. They have expected us to keep their secrets so far and we have done so why hide this?

Their financial situation may be complicated but they have no legitimate reason to hide anything from us as we have been told for years that we shouldn't expect any inheritence as they will be getting the house when DGM dies due to all the years of 'care' they have provided. Up til now DGM has been very independent so it hasn't really been an issue.

Our DM is quite intimidating and other family issues have meant we did not want to get into a discussion about this unless our DGM's wellbeing was affected which it is now.

I think it's going to be difficult to just pop round as they will know we are there (only one driveway and you can hear a vehicle arrive as the location is remote and very quiet).

It indeed sounds concerning, particularly the care aspect

Regarding finances, my first thought was that your parents don't want you in the house while they're away in case you find papers pertaining to remortgaging or other financial abuse.

the best interests of your DGM should not involve secrets....

there is something seriously amiss here...

Financial irregularities would be my guess....

I think it's going to be difficult to just pop round as they will know we are there

But surely they must go out fairly regularly, even if it's just to do the shopping? And what are they going to do if they turn up and find you there - throw you out? That really would be unwise if, by any chance, they have something to hide

This whole thing sounds extremely odd and there really shouldn't be this reluctance to "let" you visit, especially when you've been willing helpers in the past. It might all be utterly innocent, but in your shoes I'm afraid I'd just want to get in there and gently probe to see if you can find out any more

First of all, does your gran have capacity? Is she vulnerable (just being old doesn't make you vulnerable)? Does she have an issue with what your parents are doing? Is she aware of it?

Are your parents using your grans money? Is she giving it to them or are they taking it?

Don't do anything before speaking to your gran and seeing what she wants you to do.

I'm an adult safeguarding officer. Feel free to PM me if you want more specific advice.

Puzzled they do go shopping a couple of times a week at random times other than that they are always at home and we wouldn't know when they are out as they are not speaking to us.

They have just asked to see my Dbro to discuss an urgent matter and told him they don't want me. There he is refusing to see them or discuss it without me at least until some of the documentation has come back (they don't know I have applied for land reg, copy of DGF will and any power of attorney in place).

I'm pretty sure DGM has been told a story to put her off seeing us. They know that my Dbro is less likely than me to make a fuss which is I guess why they don't want me there

How was your relationship with your DM & DF before all of this OP?

Does DM have form for being difficult and/or not wanting either of her children in her home unless expressly invited?

My reason for asking being that if she was previously happy for you to be there & is now not there is more reason to be suspicious.

As far as you know, is your DGM fairly wealthy? Or should she be fairly wealthy? If privately funded (which it would be for anyone other than the very poorest), carer visits can be very expensive.

As a part of assessing whether a person qualifies for help with the cost of carer visits, full details of the patient's income & savings need to be provided. As your DGM has mental capacity, this would be done with your DGM present - or with your DGM needing to sign forms to say everything stated is correct. At this point, it may be very hard for your DM to hide the truth if, in fact, DGM has considerably less money left than she thought!

Of course, care can be provided without the financial assessment on a purely private paying basis - but this would be very expensive.

Having experience of working in community care, and having met lots of families in similar situations (in so much as a couple in their 60's living with an elderly, frail relative is concerned), I am suspicious of DP's not wanting help from a carer. It can be very full-on caring for someone, especially when you are in retirement yourself. Most families I have met in this situation actively seek help from carers to enable them to get out a bit more, whilst still knowing that their loved one will be taken care of - or even just have someone popping by checking they're not lying on the floor.

I am also very suspicious of them not allowing you a key to DGM's home.

Looby
She has capacity yes. She is not aware of where they go on holiday and how much it costs
DGM has total control of her financial affairs as far as I'm aware.

She pays all the bills herself and gives them and us small financial gifts on our birthdays (probably amounting to £2000 a year in total).

Other than that she has not mentioned any other gifts or financial help and she isn't the type of person not to talk about it

I'm so sorry Shwang - this just sounds worse and worse, though if I've understood correctly that your DB won't attend a meeting without you, that can surely only be a good thing

If you'd previously taken no interest in GM or made a habit of rocking the boat over nothing I can just about see why they might behave this way, but that doesn't seem to be the case - and anyway, then they probably wouldn't have involved you in lies about their holidays either

Though prepared to be utterly wrong, it seems to me that a suspicion of something untoward is getting more realistic

Sounds like what my dhs family did to his grandmother - in fact, sounds exactly the same. Grandmother passed away a few years ago. I would personally look into financial and emotional abuse. Sorry I won't go into here as it's all quite revealing but suffice to say I've been though this and is bloody awful, especially for the grandmother involved.

How long before you get all the documents together ?

Maybe your GF left his share to your mum ? Has your mum got any siblings ?

I also suspect your GM is very cross at your brother for removing her car key when she was ill and the spare key was with your parents as she wouldn't be able to drive. I completely see why you/he did it, she was unsafe, but she won't perceive it that way especially living in an isolated spot. I expect she'll want everything to 'go back to normal' driving herself around when your parents are away...to the detriment of all of us. In terms of capacity, of course, he perhaps should have reported her to her GP rather than just taken her car keys as it is her property.

I've just re-read your opening post and noticed that the expensive holidays, etc, have been going on for 8-9 years ... in which case perhaps GM really did sign her assets over to DM and DSF? You probably know that this has to be done at least 7 years before death if a "claim back" is to avoided, and the timescale would fit with that

What I can't understand, though, is why they wouldn't just stay so. After all it's not as if they'd have done anything wrong - unless of course GM was somehow forced into it?