AIBU? Neglect? Fraud?

[Shwangalangadingdong]

My parents live with my grandmother, and have done for the last ten years. My DGM is 89, my DM is 64 and my DD is 66.

My parents don't pay rent or bills and have a substantial property which is attached to my DGM's house which is their private area. They go away a three times a year for a total of 12 weeks, and while away spend a lot of money of luxury items. I'd guess they spend around £25000 a year on all this and this has been going on for the last 8-9 years.

Neither of them work or have done for the last ten years. I don't know exactly what their personal income is but they have standard pensions from a government employer which have only just started and I have no idea what their income was previous to this.

They make meals and do basic housekeeping for my DGM but have never had anything more challenging to deal with other than a couple of hospital visits due to falls she has had in the last year and small tasks occasionally.

DGM broke her ankle after falling down just after they left for a five week cruise. My brother went round to visit her and found that she had been suffering at home for 24 hours after she broke her ankle. She ended up in hospital for 3 weeks and was only allowed home when my DM and DF got home. My brother and me visited her while she was in hospital and helped to get her home. We love her very much and we were happy she was back at home.

We both have other caring, family and work commitments so do not have much free time but have offered to house sit my parents house to keep an eye and be around but they won't let either of us stay or even have a key for emergencies. It's a remote isolated house so that makes it harder.

Our parents returned and immediately told us both that they are going on a safari in October for 5 weeks. My brother and me decided that we would no longer be prepared to cover up our parents lavish lifestyle to my DGM anymore if they are prepared to go away and leave her in danger again. We have questioned between ourselves how they can afford all this stuff for years but have been persuaded by our parents to keep it a secret from my DGM in order to keep the peace.

So we told our parents that we are not prepared to keep the trips and the other money stuff a secret from our DGM anymore. We have said that they cannot leave her again without any support. They have already implied to her that me and DBRO were trying to get her put into a home while they were away. We feel like they are threatening her with this subtly as she wants to her to stay in her own house until she dies, and she told us her wishes over and over again while she was in hospital. We want this for her as well she is very happy there.

We are worried that she is in a vulnerable position living with them and want to help her. We think it's possible that my parents have been defrauding and / or bullying her in some way and if we bring it up with DGM that she will be extremely upset and hurt and in a very difficult position. However she is extremely bright and lived through a lot worse and very capable of sorting out an issue if there is one - for now anyway.

So we have contacted DGM to arrange to meet up with and gently try and find out if there's any worries on her side, but she has said she's too busy and there's a lot going on. In the meantime our parents have said they have everything sorted out and we needn't bother ourselves anymore. It feels like they're isolating her from us and now I'm even more concerned about her.

I am posting to ask for advice before I contact adult safeguarding or social services as I'm not even sure that's going to be in GM best interest long term

emmyrose she fell and didn't press her emergency alarm, she's very stoic and hates to make a fuss so we only found out when he visited then got her to hospital. A live in carer would make sense (and we have offered to help with this) but my DGM wants her house to herself and they refuse to discuss anyone staying at theirs while she's away.

They both had pretty modest careers and took early retirement from civil service type jobs so I doubt that's enuogh to support their lifestyle.

DGM knows they are away but not where they really are eg they say they are camping in Spain when they are on a 4 or 5 week tour of South Africa. They say she would worry too much if she knew the truth and we have gone along with it in order to keep the peace and keep her happy

weatherbomb yes we visit our parents when they are at home for meals a few times a year (Xmas, Easter etc) but are not allowed in there when they are away. Explanation has always been that it's their home and they don't want anyone else in there. They are really weird about money generally and paranoid that a carer might 'befriend' DGM and rob her blind and DGM has had this happen to a friend of hers so it plays into her fears

I'd be inclined to arrange with DBro to take your DGM out for lunch/tea or some such. I'd explain your concerns with her about her health and welfare and that you are worried.

Ask her if she has any worries and if there are any things she would like to change. Ensure she knows that you will believe her and that her needs are at the forefront. I would try and keep your parents involvement limited in the discussion so she doesn't feel caught in the middle.

It sounds like financial abuse to me. I also don't understand why they don't arrange carers while they're away - even someone who could come by for a couple of hours a day and made sure she was okay and fed would be better than nothing (and might be more acceptable to your grandmother).

Re. the holiday locations - that sounds very suspicious. They're obviously trying to downplay the costs involved. The cheaper places probably match up with the income from the types of jobs they'd had.

The more luxurious ones could (1) be legitimately affordable via their pension/savings/investments/lottery. Or (2) the result of fraudulently gained funds.

I sincerely hope it's the former, but the odd behaviours unfortunately hint at the latter.

I assume your parents are concerned that a carer may befriend DGM and discover what they're up to.

Their long next trip away is an open door to talk to your DGM.

You say your parents house is attached to GMs - how attached? Is there a door between them?

A live in carer would be very expensive. My aged aunt has 2 carers who do around 5 hours a day, that's still much cheaper than live in care.

Does your DGM read documents that are put in front of her? I'm wondering if they've either taken out a loan against the house or got her to sign one of those 'equity release' things and that they are now busy spending her money, possibly without her knowing. They wouldn't need POA for that, would they, if she'd signed the documents?

Such a difficult situation... I think you need to talk to your DGM, when your parents next 'go away', would she let you in if you called round just to check on her? I think she needs to be told the truth, at the very least, about their 'holidays', then she can make her own decisions about what level of care she would like when they are away, whether it's you and brother popping in or a live-in carer. It's her choice, surely, not your parents?

I think you need to take professional advice on this OP, and I'd contact your local social services adult helpdesk with your suspicions. You can do this anonymously, and they can at least advise you if there is something to be concerned about. Elderly abuse is something they will take very seriously.

This must be horrid to be thinking about your parents this way. I hope you get some answers.

We have tried to arrange to meet her but she said she is busy the next few weeks and has a lot going on and asked for the car keys back. It is all very bizarre. She usually loves seeing us.

They may well sort out some daily care for when they go away next time but we don't know as we have been shut out now. Parents will not speak to us since we said their behaviour is unacceptable and she needs better care when they're away.

If we had been included we could have helped arrange a care package which could include ourselves and other relatives staying in their house in shifts (my son and his GF could also stay and she is a carer herself). DGM's house isn't big enough and she is very regimented / set in her ways and wants her privacy

I think you need to see her face to face.

Zaphod they have their own entrances and keys etc. It's possible to keep her live in care within the family / friends if they would discuss it but yes I think they're paranoid about being 'found out' not someone ripping off DGM.

It's possible they may have remortgaged the house but we have no way of finding this out. I think adult social services is my next step today. My DGM is mentally sound and has managed her finances all her life. If they have ripped her off they would have to be pretty clever about it but barring a secret lottery win their level of income doesn't make sense

To put another side to this, there is no suggestion your grandmother has lost capacity is there? In which case, she's perfectly free to give all her money to her own child or give them sums of money in exchange for caring for her/to contribute to household expenses. You say about getting hold of her will, but it is very usual for wills to state everything is to be left to the her children anyway! I'm not sure that will take you very far.

Your grandmother wasn't left unattended without support when they were away, she has a pendant presumably paid for to summon medical help and she didn't press it. You also go weekly. Given she doesn't have additional care needs, I don't think this is completely unreasonable. She may prefer to live in her own home with 24/7 company of your parents rather than in an old people's home and unless she has lost capacity, she does have the right to do that and make choices about her own money.

As for their lavish lifestyle, I bet it doesn't cost quite as much as you think. They are mortgage free, with old-style final salary civil service pensions which are probably pretty generous. My parents are retired and go away betwen 3-6 times a year themselves on modest pensions, it is cheap as it is not in school holidays, they don't eat lavishly when there and so on. They may have extensive savings or your GM may be giving them money directly, this is not illegal if she has capacity.

I'm not saying of course that it wouldn't hurt to get an assessment from social services, and it may be that something deceptive has gone on in terms of them siphoning her money (financial abuse) but I don't think that's the only explanation.

Also, given you do see your GM regularly and them for meals many times a year, I see they are secretive, but you aren' t being prevented from accessing your GM, just not entering their property when they are not there. Plus your GM keeps repeating that she wants to stay in her own home, and frankly, having your parents there is the best way for that to happen for her, it is far less likely if you had outside carers in for 3 x 20 minutes a week. So, she may feel any monetary exchange is worth it.

They do sound secretive and a bit strange, and the lack of transparency does make you suspicious, but there's nothing here that makes me think your grandmother is being abused in any way, in fact, her wish to remain in her own home, the pendant, meals delivered, the family supporting when they are away and so on sound like something satisfactory is in place. I do agree though that getting additional care for these times may be necessary as your GM ages.

I don't know the truth of the situation, but neither do you, I may be a bit playing devil's advocate here.

OP you could be sharing the same story of my family, except instead of my parents, it is my DM's brother!

Unfortunately, elder abuse is EXTREMELY hard to prove and the law seems very skewed in favour of giving people the benefit of the doubt. I hate to tell you that my DM has been fighting her brother (and other family members who think the sun shines out of his arse) for YEARS and it has cost her a fortune in legal fees etc... not to mention the awful tactics they use of excluding her from family events, slandering her, verbally abusing her, telling DGM and anyone who'll listen lies that she is a thief and tries to control DGM etc..etc...

You are acting because you care for your DGM, but do be prepared for a lot of time, effort, emotional stress and frustration when trying to do right by her.

Unfortunately, my DGM has what is effectively Stockholm Syndrome so it may be similar with yours.

There is no adult safeguarding service where my mother lives so she is forced to try to use legal channels. Brother just uses DGM's cash to fund his lawyers!

Good luck. I hope your DGM's interests are protected soon. Be prepared for the emotional and physical cost of fighting free-loading family members who you don't really want to admit are scum!

Equity release was my first thought as well, because your DGM has all her faculties and they probably wouldn't be able to use their POA (if they have one) whilst she's able to conduct her own affairs.

The downplaying of their holiday destinations and not letting you as family near either their house or DGM's smacks of something to hide, like possessions they couldn't afford on their pensions/savings, or the place where details of any fraudulent activity is kept, are they old enough to keep paper records of everything rather than electronic?

I wonder if they think they are spending her money to avoid paying care home fees for her in the future. This is illegal and the term you need to mention to have that investigated is deliberate deprivation of assets.

I agree with everyone else re the practical help your DGM needs whilst your parents are away and whilst they are with DGM so the carer could see and hear what's going on

When elders are suspected of being abused, some family members install tiny hidden cameras which stream to a smartphone.

Sounds from what you're saying that GM Has been scared off from seeing you.... and from having a carer.
People who are up to no good always feel others are doing the same thing...
Cheaters think they're cheated on, thieves think people will steal from them etc.
Humans are "herd" animals and it's abnormal to claim she needs all this care but then segregate her from it and leave her alone on while they're on their jollies..
Something is waaaay wrong.
They are using arms length management.

Foureyes I agree and all this could well be true. It's hard to believe that they can afford this but not impossible. We know the details of where they stay (think first class long haul flights / michelin star restaurants and luxury hotels or holiday lets) but not the details of their income.

They had no savings when they moved in and no income from employment in the last ten years. If she was giving them that much money then they wouldn't have a problem telling her where they're going

It is my deceased DGF's will I am asking for a copy of as he died in 2006 and we've never since his will and as we weren't left any money by him never felt the need to check it til now. Just trying to get to the bottom of it.

We haven't rocked the boat til now because her care has been adequate but they were planning to go away and leave her again in the same situation even tho her ability to walk has deteriorated now and she needed help with washing / toileting when in hospital

You can do a property search on line at the land registry. It might show if any loans are registered against the property.

she's very stoic and hates to make a fuss

Hates to make a fuss ... or is afraid to?

I'd agree with most of what foureyes said, if it wasn't for the fact they're so obviously trying to keep you away from her; for someone who normally loves seeing you to suddenly be so busy for weeks is odd indeed

PPs are right - you really do need a gentle chat with her face to face, after which her general attitude should make it clearer what you need to be doing

I wonder if they think they are spending her money to avoid paying care home fees for her in the future. This is illegal and the term you need to mention to have that investigated is deliberate deprivation of assets

Thankyou Blank this makes a lot of sense and is a plausible explanation. Not sure how it could be investigated though?

Shwang I think if her care needs have changed, you have every reason for moving forward with a needs assessment when they are away for 5 weeks. This does seem recent, though, and to date, they were going away having left her with an alarm, your support and so on, and it was sufficient. Now it is not, so I agree that more help will be needed (although if you think you will get lots of care unfortunately this may well not be the case, these services are cut to the bone and those with live-in or family carers around can find it hard to access).

I think I would tread softly, softly, because your grandmother is now resisting- she's constantly telling you she wants to go home, and is 'too busy' to see you- so wait til they go away and then just go around and see how the land lies. I wouldn't make any accusations about them, but listen and watch and get a needs assessment when they next go away.

Who owns your parents house? In the OP it says their house is attached to your GMs and they don't pay rent or bills. Is the freehold in their name?

If it's owned by GM, only she would be able to take equity release or re-mortgage.

Sorry - nothing to add but it does sound extremely fishy. Is there no way that there's a possibility that they have made shrewd and lucrative investments over the years that is funding all this now?

Also, who's parent is DGM? Your mum or your dad's? If you do think there is something going on, who is most likely to be the driving force?

Thank you for all your help. I am so worried about this. I have just ordered the land registry document online.

If it were just about her care then I agree it's not a huge problem. It's just the secrecy and the lying that has made me hugely worried for DGM's future. She is being kept away from us now and it's a while until September and the next luxury holiday

March she is our mum's mother and it's our DM who is the driving force behind all communication / organisation our DF (actually step dad) has very little to say to us about this and let's her deal with it

There's nothing to stop you dropping in is there? Would she turn you away?