to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

Why do we automatically assume that every badly behaved child is disabled

Because it is easier to label a child with something that just happens than it is to admit that there may be parenting issues and confront them full on.

However, it is a good position to start from. Kids will be checked out to see what IS the underlying problem. A lot do have ADHD type issues, autism, dyslexia, ADD, LD, even eating disorders - all can present first off as "behavioural issues".

Is a "naughty child" or their mum (usually their mum )to be blamed even if there are none of these issues - what if their dad thumps them, what if they are stuck in a flat with 3 siblings, no money and no hope, what if they are awake all night with noisy neighbours?

Getting to the bottom of the behaviour problems is not an easy thing, so sometimes the "label" is the easiest part.

the 9 year old should not be in mainstream, it is not good for her to be isolated. It is not the right setting, but we have to jump through hoops before county would be satisfies and say that she is not suitable for mainstream.

I've worked with children with behavioural problems and I'm struggling to see what kind of behaviour management is going on here from the Op's description. However, you've got to feel for the staff here. Imagine having to deal with this on top of all the other pressures teachers have. I do think you need to go to the head and perhaps the governors. Perhaps if parents put pressure on the school l, they might

Bigbutton, the child being in the wrong setting is not her fault though is it?

Posted too soon! They might seek extra support from outside.

There is a problem with the 'emotional/behavioural/social difficulties' SEN diagnosis for older children, in that the definition is circular: if they misbehave regularly, they are often automatically assumed to have this form of SEND.

The problem with this is that, particularly in secondary, some misbehaving children may be misbehaving not because they are incapable of behaving better, but because it gets them rewards, lets them not do the work, and because it's enjoyable, because they gain social kudos, etc. Their behaviour then is copied by others, and you end up with the kind of unteachable classes described in some of the posts above.

In addition, the automatic assumption that all such children require a rewards-based system, rather than one of firm and consistent discipline, accompanied by support and the message that it is being applied to help them, doesn't really have evidence behind it.

It also doesn't appear to be the case that all such children come from traumatic situations. If you're interested, look up the 'callous and unemotional' diagnosis; this appears to be the precursor to adult sociopathy, and is estimated to be 80% heritable. Such children are highly likely to be bullies and manipulative. (Sociopaths are estimated to make up 1% of the adult male population.)

Rewards based systems don't tend to work with children who have attachment disorder. But neither do sanctions based systems. This is the problem and this is why it can look like nothing is happening.

What OP and many other posters seem to want is for these badly behaved/ troubled children to get the hell out of our primary school. Sad they are like this and all that please can they do it NIMBY.

Do you realise that the school are pretty much powerless to just make these kids go away? It is very, very hard to permanently exclude children from a state school. They have a right to an education. The headteacher can't just say 'sorry you're not wanted here'

You want them to go elsewhere but where do you think they can go?

What you want is simply not possible.

Ok then you say. Well teachers should take a tough line, stand up to this behaviour etc. But if they have no support from home and even active antagonism/ undermining how well do you think that will work?

There is an absolute right of confidentiality for all so they cannot explain to all and sundry how they are dealing with this or what steps are taken.

Going to complain to the head I expect will only use up the heads time and cause him/ her added stress. They are hardly going to be unaware of the problems or how other parents feel about them and they can't say anything to you so any meeting will be pointless and unsatisfactory.

Do you think the head was overjoyed to be forced to accept these kids or doesn't wish she could get rid of all these problems? She feels the same as you but isn't allowed to say so!

Since what you want isn't possible you just have to work with what you've got. It is a useful opportunity to explain to DC that life is not fair and indeed the rules don't apply quite the same to everyone in life. My DC in reception were able to understand that 'x doesn't have to sit on the carpet because his brain works differently'

I would tell my DC that they are held to a higher standard than these boys because that's the right thing to do. They don't behave worse just because others are.

I know you wouldn't do this but actually the best thing you could do would be to invite the boys to tea or chat to their mother. Exclusion and punishment clearly haven't worked. When you have nothing it doesn't really matter what gets taken away. If you have no hope of succeeding why try as you'll only fail. Research shows that what saves kids like these is a positive role model often a teacher, friends parent, youth leader or sports coach.

Or just carp from the sidelines and hope that the head eventually manages to exclude them or they leave because it's all about you and yours.

I agree, the 9 year old is in the wrong setting, but the school will have to prove this and parents will need to support an ehcp application. In my Lea, there is no provision for emotional and mental health problems at ks1, at ks2 it is all in units attached to mainstream. So these kids are with us, we need to manage them better and actually work to improve their outcomes, mental health and behaviour rather than just get through each day without making it worse for them or their peers.

And support and therapy isn't easy to come by. We had to demand an official exclusion the third time we were asked to collect my son early so we could start to get support and be taken seriously. The school did not want to give it.

My perspective on this is as a school governor. I absolutely know how hard it is to permanently exclude (plus you are just passing the buck to another school who will be forced to accept)

You have to start a long way back to solve a problem like this

At my school we pay for a family support worker and a school counsellor out of the school budget precisely to support families like this of whom we have many in our catchment.

You may feel this is wrong as that money could be spent on education and you could argue that we are doing the job of social services. We are but the alternative is the head and teachers wasting lots of time on safeguarding meetings, parental support and behaviour management.

Why did the school accept these troubled children into year 5? Money.

So they are placed in a previously calm place without adequate support.

I understand the concerns of the OP, who comes accross as reasonable and caring.

Maybe some kids can comprehend x is different the rules don't apply. But if don't think I could as a child.

Most of the time school's have no choice

Your child is 10. Not 4. They should be now understand that children have different needs. Email the head of you have any serious concerns that directly effect your child.

randomer Most schools have no choice. They have to accept so many excluded children. They don't make any money out of it. Any money they do get will in all likelihood not cover costs. That's one of the reasons so many schools fight so hard to keep SN children out.

Years ago my head with threatened by the LEA if she didn't keep a child that had already been excluded from 2 other schools, had assaulted children and staff as well as giving her a black eye.

Sorry user but you can't say that a child isn't neglected and also say they have no discipline. If they aren't being disciplined then that IS neglect!
I quite agree that mainstream staff frequently don't have the training, resources or time to deal with challenging children. But that isn't their fault any more than it is yours. Please don't speak about children in such a dehumanising way.

Glad to see that HQ have agreed and removed user's disablist comment. If anyone is still watching th thread please feel free to edit my post where it was quoted as well.
Very worrying that people who see some children as less than human are responsible for caring for and educating them in schools.

It sounds like the boys are in charge not the staff
They need someone in their life they trust and can talk to
Somebody who gives them clear boundaries

i had never come accross the term disablist until I came on here. What does it mean exactly?

Is neglect and an inability to follow rules a disability?

Neglect can result in children's brains developing differently and result in disability absolutely. And obviously disability can also be genetic or acquired through injury. Users post said that children with 'sen' were incapable of behaving like normal human beings. This is disablist for a number of reasons. Firstly the inverted commas around 'sen' implies that the sen aren't real. For a start a child has sen if they need additional provision for whatever reason. And secondly user has no way of knowing for sure the reasons behind the sen. Has the child been neglected early in life, are there undiagnosed issues such as asd, Adhd, sensory issues? And secondly the implication that children with sen are not only not normal or human but are also incapable of even imitating those characteristics.
Very challenging children (beyond normal levels misbehaviour) are not that way without reason. It is much more likely that a child who hasn't been well cared for for eg has difficulty with the executive functions required for completing tasks rather than they can't be bothered. And support would work much better than punishment. It is a shame that a lot of vulnerable children are not only being failed at home but also at school.

I think behaviour in schools is a massive concern. I am leaving my current job (and the state education sector) because of it. And my school is by no means the worst. But I know that some children in my classes are not getting the education they need. I cannot spend another year unable to provide proper support to Tom and Jessica simply because Edward will be immediately off task (and deliberately distracting or injuring other students) if I take my eyes off him. I have tried:
-sitting him near good role models, near the front, near the back, on his own
-following school behaviour management policy (rewards and sanctions as appropriate)
-discussing with Edward the reasons for his poor behaviour
-contacting home
-raising concerns with form tutor, head of year, deputy head
The response is unanimous "Edward really struggles in a classroom". Nothing I or anyone else is doing is helping. It is unfair on Edward as well as Tom and Jessica. (And me! I want to help, but there is nothing else I can do - it is demoralising and incredibly frustrating.)

Some children display poor behaviour which can be dealt with by the classroom teacher. Some children display behaviour which cannot be dealt with by the classroom teacher and leads to poor learning and poor outcomes for the individual child and the rest of the class. But teachers are repeatedly told "if your lessons are good, behaviour will be good". This is a myth. If lessons are interesting and challenging (but not too challenging) that increases the chance of good behaviour, but it does not guarantee it. There is a limit to what an individual teacher can do. The particular danger of this myth is that many teachers won't admit they aren't coping out of fear of being managed out of a job. (I teach a shortage subject and my classes get good results so I'm in the privileged position of not worrying about this too much.)

I don't know whether it is lack of money, support staff or a general unwillingness to accept that a mainstream classroom environment isn't suitable for all children. But it isn't helping the child, their peers or their parents.

I have read the messages here, I have had a good think about what everyone has said about what might be causing these kids to behave the way they do, I've thought about what is or is not my business to worry about, I've thought about whether I should reconsider helping in the school so much.

I asked to speak to the head today. Before I could even say anything he said that he guessed why I was there, that the school had not been prepared for recent changes in the classroom and that they were struggling to find resources to manage the change. He asked that I write a formal complaint to him and to the governors because the more complaints they have the more leverage the school has to ask for help. All of this was before I had even said anything apart from hello.

Maybe this was inappropriate of him even though he didn't spell out what the 'changes' were, but it made me feel better to hear someone acknowledge the difficulties instead of ignoring them. I felt quite sorry for him, he's obviously had this conversation many times recently.

I said that my son has been feeling unsettled in the classroom, feeling like it just isn't such a good place right now and that he was upset sometimes about some of the behaviour he was seeing. He said they are setting up a nurture group for the kids in the class to come and talk about how they are feeling and what they are seeing once a staff member has attended the appropriate training.

I said I am not demanding action of any kind, just a recognition that life is tough in that class right now for everyone.

I asked specifically if the rewards linked to homework could be reconsidered because this particular issue is causing resentment in the class. Perhaps the outdoor time could be a reward for something else or a reward for having made some effort with homework rather that all or nothing.

He said he hadn't been aware of that particular policy but would raise it with the class teacher.

So I feel ok that I have put my son's worries across, hopefully I didn't make the teachers feel too miserable, I know other parents have gone in and just let rip, so I'm glad I read all your thoughts first or my discussion might not have been so measured.

I agree Amelia. Well differentiated, exciting lessons may captivate most children. But children who are coming to school hungry or with attention/impulse control problems need more than one teacher can give. Especially as there are all too frequently numerous children with challenging behaviour in one class.
I do think that inclusion COULD work for the majority of children but it would be very expensive and underfunded inclusion does no-one any favours - the children who struggle, their peers or teaching staff.

On one hand, I'm glad your head is understanding but it is frustrating that he feels he needs parent complaints as leverage. It just highlights how tough it is for the teaching profession when they get children who clearly can't function in a school dumped on them with no support.

I don't think there's necessarily a reason why some are disruptive/behave badly. The two in dd's class have lovely homes/parents. I'm good friends with one of the mums. She's definitely not been neglectful. I think it's down to personality sometimes. Some need a lot more input/reward than others. My dd accepts that at age 11 and isn't bothered by it.