Mansplaining

[Featherstickers]

Is it a thing? Or another media cliché?

I believe Dh is a huuuuuge mansplainer and I find it frustrating infuriating at times.

AIBU to ask if it's a real thing and how to cope with it to protect my sanity.

Pan for the UK, it's not the only study that shows that. But that erodes over the years. And isn't present in many countries.

Seeing as this seems to have morphed into a thread about the gender pay gap. What are people's thoughts on the last ONS report showing that female graduates out earn their male counterparts by a couple of percent during their 20s?

To get back to the main point of the thread, I'm not sure that mansplaining is a solely male trait, as evidenced on this thread. There are always some people that want to position themselves as experts over people who are, you know, actual experts in the field.

However, I have to say, I've had many, many more men behave in that way towards me than women. I've even had men collar me as I come off-stage after a talk/presentation and explain my own talk to me. It's really rather tiresome.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster / joey

I felt that this was likely due to the education system letting me down or that feminism is not achieving equality, it's taking from men and boosting women to a position of privilege. I felt that it was a run-on from girls achieving better grades at school, being more likely to attend uni and leaving uni with better degrees.

I also saw it as fine evidence that in fact, there is no pay gap. If you do better at school and further education then you get a better job and earn more money. This statistic doesn't worry me as such but the reasons for it seemed to be within my control (for some) so men could be boosted back to equality by getting a better education.

Why do you ask?

BossofWho

When did I suggest I was an expert?

It seems we have very different ideas of what constitues equal pay. I say, same money for the same job not, earn less because you're in a "less valuable role". Why do so many very trustworthy publications disagree with 'your' conclusion? (Time, NY Times, The Economist etc) I assume that the UN's numbers are correct except that your pay gap is an entirely different thing to that which everyone else considers.

"a female junior broker given the less lucrative clients to work on (because they aren't so tough, and she's not so tough)"

If she isn't so tough, she should not get the tougher clients. She needs to toughen up or accept she's unlikely to be as successful as her tougher peer. The brand of feminism that says she should get the client despite her seeming lack of ability frustrates me.

I endured enjoyed an interesting FB debate on feminism with a mansplainer the other day regarding 'that headline' about Theresa May.

He told anyone who was bothered by it that they should save their energy and get angry about more important things etc and when it was pointed out that he came across as patronising he played the old "I grew up with a single mum" card which of course means he is utterly respectful of all women.

I just deployed the old "Behold, a man has arrived to share his manly viewpoint" meme, which he didn't seem to appreciate and then posted a link to YouTube video about mansplaining as I really couldn't be bothered to engage in any actual debate.

My very eloquent friend tried several times to point out what he was doing, in a very respectful way, but he just couldn't see it. The phrase "your privilege is showing" was even deployed! I quite enjoy winding up the mansplainers - you can almost hear them frothing as they type!

Mars, I expect her toughness, or lack of, is perceived rather than actual.

*I endured enjoyed an interesting FB debate on feminism with a mansplainer the other day regarding 'that headline' about Theresa May.

He told anyone who was bothered by it that they should save their energy and get angry about more important things etc and when it was pointed out that he came across as patronising he played the old "I grew up with a single mum" card which of course means he is utterly respectful of all women.*

That just sounds like someone having an opinion you disagree with. I disagree with his opinion too, but surely expressing an opinion isn't mansplaining?

I really couldn't be bothered to engage in any actual debate.

I'm not sure shutting down someone by refusing to debate is any better than what you would deem mansplaining.

Gabilan - There’s the assumption that I won't know something because I'm female - he would have thought a man would know. And he also would have listened to a man's explanation. But three times he ignored me and then he explained it to me. Bastard.

I don’t think it’s understood how often men do this to other men. Believing that he ‘would have listened to a man’s explanation’ is a supposition that’s not easily tested.

It’s easy to assume that we men never suffer from being talked down to. It’s not so. I have a technical specialism with almost 40 years of experience, but I still get told “Nah, mate, what you really want is….” by salespeople who don’t understand what I do (otherwise, they wouldn’t be salespeople).
There’s stupid, boorish, people everywhere and sometimes the boorishness is sexist in nature. Often, however, it’s just pig ignorance plus boorishness and you get that from both genders. See under Katie Hopkins.

As with so much mansplaining Ted, it was all in the tone of delivery. And I didn't need to engage in the debate, my very eloquent friend was putting across my thoughts admirably and I was simply agreeing with her. The poster was dismissing her vast experience and knowledge with little snippets of patronising crap and "calm down dear" type replies.

He wasn't taking on board any of her points about the difference in tone of his replies and hers, which were respectful of a difference of opinion. His posts had a very condescending tone and he showed no signs of accepting an alternate view.

The poster was dismissing her vast experience and knowledge with little snippets of patronising crap and "calm down dear" type replies.

Fair enough - context is everything. Sounds like he deserved it, then.

Oh it's easy to test Snotgobbler. But of course, in order to be believed, the research would have to be done by men.

Anyway, an example. I used to team teach a computing class which consisted mostly of young adult males. It was a fairly hands on class, so there was a lot of practical skills involved. Students would normally approach me first for help (female and more approachable) I would sit with them, go through the issues, do all the things teacher's do until I was sure they had grasped the concept and were capable of carrying out the task. As soon as I turned my attention to another student they would seek out my (male) colleague and ask for his help.

The thing is, it wasn't me who noticed this pattern, it was my colleague. To check, he made a point of repeating exactly what I had said, adding precisely nothing in terms of content or intonation. It was his conclusion that the students didn't need any more help (nothing wrong with that BTW, sometimes a different teacher gives a different perspective) but that they couldn't really believe anything I said until it had been confirmed by a man.

Mars you missed my point, which was that women are often perceived as less tough just because they are women and thus given less challenging and less rewarding roles.

Yes many trustworthy publications have published POVs and OpEds disagreeing on the pay gap. IMO they tend to have a very binary view about the paygap - much like yours. You can also find as many articles agreeing about gender bias reflecting in pay. Hence the HUGE focus in the UN, in industry and in the media on the equalisation of opportunity for women.

It's a subject of much debate, and one I am very proud to be engaged in.

I didn't miss your point.

My arse is usually full of splinters from sitting on the fence. I tend to start from a strong, opinionated position but then move towards the middle as I read and learn more about a subject. However, I do define the pay gap as remuneration for the same job. The pay gap is a binary decision tree. Is there a difference between av. female pay and av. male pay? We both say 'yes'. Is it due to sexism or inherent differences and lifestyle due to choices? I say 'yes', you say....?

Oh, I make those comments and definitions without being a self-described 'expert'!

which was that women are often perceived as less tough just because they are women and thus given less challenging and less rewarding roles

Surely that can't be proven?

What do you think about the 20-30 women beating men in earnings? How does this not prove that there is no pay gap and that the biggest difference is the life choices many 30 year old women make (babies!)?

Mars I'd really love to engage on this, but I'm too busy tonight, will try and come back tomorrow. I think the difference of opinion is that you believe it's about choice, I believe that it's about both choice and sexism.

I'll try and set up a different thread about it tomorrow and link you to it - am conscious that we're derailing a thread about a different subject matter here.

I don’t think it’s understood how often men do this to other men. Believing that he ‘would have listened to a man’s explanation’ is a supposition that’s not easily tested

It's quite easily observed. It happens frequently in meetings. Woman explains something. No-one comments or says anything. Man makes same point, everyone agrees and thinks it's marvellous.

As various women have tried to explain about mansplaining, much of it is about men who are ignorant in a sphere explaining it to a woman who is an expert. And then, and this is key. not listening or dismissing her when she tells them her credentials as an expert.

Salespeople are a rather different category, since they have an obvious reason to try to convince you that they know about stuff. They're just selling and if they want to get something sold they'll try to convince you they know all about it and it's marvellous.

Being talked down to because you are a woman, and being ignored when you demonstrate your expertise is women's daily lived experience. Yes, occasionally both men and women are condescending to other men and women in all permutations. Thanks for telling me that when I pointed it out a couple of 100 posts ago.

One last thing before I really do get on with my evening out - Mars you asked how I know, how it can be proven? Because I've seen it happen - heard it being said - watched people behave like that. 25 years in industry - you'd be shocked at what I've seen, especially if you've spent most of your life working in a more female dominated environment.

Plus I don't believe women should be punished for choosing to have a baby. What does it matter that I took a few months out of my career if I'm doing the same role as a man and have the same abilities as a man? Why should that deny anyone the chance to operate on the same level as that man and earn the same money?

And if you say it doesn't, then I honestly don't think you're living in the same world as I am. There are precious few women operating at my level in my industry, literally a handful of us. Did all the others choose to have babies and take the mommy track? Did they fuck.

It's a thing.

I once had a man say, 'I won't go into too much detail, I don't want to blind you with the science'

i have two science degrees, I think I'll keep up Instead I said, 'hahah it's fine'.

We should correct more. It's a combo of men being overly comfortable dominating conversations and us being too polite to correct the situation.

More examples below....

twitter.com/i/moments/844359075374641152

I once had a man say, 'I won't go into too much detail, I don't want to blind you with the science'

That's a very common saying it jus means, I won't go into details.

I've had it said to me dozens of times at work by colleagues - probably some of them women as well! - with full knowledge of my education and qualifications.

Mansplaining isn't a real thing. Just throwing that out there women are more likely to explain something in a condescending way than any men are likely to do. Just saying.

Mehme out of interest, are you male or female?

F

once had a man say, 'I won't go into too much detail, I don't want to blind you with the science'

Hmmm
Either they're fed up of explaining it or don't understand it well.

Most people I know in science are quite keen to go into details.
In fact, being in charge of an institutional open day, I have to fight my colleagues's urges to explain it all with as much detail as they can.

I once had a particle physicist not wanting to go into further details with me.
I really wanted to learn more about which bloody specific particles he worked with.

Good for you if you haven't had it happen to you, mehme. For work I have been promoting something and men not in my industry have tried to explain to me the product design and alternative products. I bloody know! Obviously! Of course I smiled sweetly as I was marketing something but I was boiling inside.

Is there a difference between av. female pay and av. male pay?

Only if you mean for the same type of job.

And ask yourself what "lifestyle choices" mean. Quite a few of these "choices" aren't real choices, but to enable men to have full time demanding careers and children. For which they aren't criticised, but women often are.

Joey, and others, hear what your saying but it's hard to convey the way it was said. It was a meeting with others, it wasn't a big issue but others in the room, male and female, thought it was a bit patronising.