To think DS's school don't understand discipline?

[mumonashoestring]

DS is 5 and I will freely admit can be a ratbag if overtired or coming down with something BUT at home he understands that he does as he's told or there are consequences (time out, loss of TV or tablet time, loss of a treat for example). Recently DH has been called a couple of times to pick DS up during the school day and bring him home early because he's been slapping or kicking, or running away from staff.

After a couple of incidents of either being told about this behaviour at home time or being asked to pick him up, we were properly clear with him at home that hitting is unacceptable, you need to do as the teachers ask etc. and he had a couple of evenings of no cartoons, no story at bedtime etc. However, talking to him about why he's been so naughty at school he says he's confused - and why? Turns out he's being told that he can't hit, but another child in the class is hitting him and not being disciplined for it - DH checked with one of the teaching assistants and they don't use the word naughty, or unacceptable, or actually do anything to provide a consequence for poor behaviour. Literally all they have is a happy sun or a sad cloud, and DS has recently been sent home with DH being told he's been hitting, but having been put in the happy sun during the day My usually happy little boy is quite obviously worried after the last couple of weeks and I'm getting quite cross with the school seemingly having no policy on discipline but expecting the parents to be able to magically convince kids to do as we say, not as the teachers allow them to do...

Plenty of metal detectors , actually, and armed police / security guards. I think Want's experiences may be rather narrow and rarefied.

Doubt it's like that in the Bronx. For example.

Sounds like they push tge kids too hard too young in the US. In some countries they, they don't start school until, 7.

Aero Depends on the issue. In our school district they have the money through title 1 to be able to send DC they can't help to specialist schools. Probably for your DD she would go into the ABA program which is run in a separate wing. The merge 2 grades together through grade 6 (K&1, 1&2, 3&4, 5&6) and split each group into categories. Behavioural issues don't mix with learning difficulties. They have their own separate classrooms which are very well thought out, very calm, have rugs to absorb sound, cork on walls, no bright colours etc.

They follow a different curriculum and have their objectives set at each IEP meeting, which are held every 6 months, with determinations of which therapies are needed, such as OT, speech, PT and play (this includes art therapy) and their frequency. The therapist is responsible to setting objectives.

If, through therapy, they can cope in a mainstream class they move up to inclusion. If that is too much for them they can stay in the ABA program and when moving up to the middle school and high school they are put through specialist programs preparing them for life. Our school district starts planning career prep at 14 for SN kids. By 16 they start a program and by 20 the expectation is that they can graduate (into a job if that is possible) or be supporting by SSI.

Ketchup NYC has been affected greatly by Bloomberg. It is awful what he has done to teachers. Chris Christie has tried to do the same but parents have pushed hard against it.

Still reading the thread but lavenderrose, you teach 3yos to 'keep their feelings to themselves'?! Not exactly teaching emotional intelligence /positive mental health with that!

Oh ok want, my daughter goes to a specialist ASD school, where she follows an adapted curriculum. She can read and write, and is currently doing inclusion in a mainstream which is going well.

I think you know you are taking it out of context mikado.

"I am feeling sad" - yes.
"Sarah is very fat, isn't she!' - no.

My 3 year olds understand the difference. I think you probably do too, don't you?

Ketchup Our high school has a police officer attached to it. She is a local mother of 9 (lord bless her I have no idea how the heck she does her job) and yes she is armed. She is a police officer. They are all armed.

Of course if you go into some of the schools in really bad areas like East Orange, Newark and Camden they will have much more security. Quite frankly it is needed. There is a huge problem with these students coming from very disruptive and abusive homes. My friend teaches in Newark and about half of her class have a parent who is an addict (alcohol and/or heroin). The level of neglect is awful and by high school these DC can't cope. Some have FAS and are affected by their mother taking drugs while pregnant.

My friend is teaching Kindergarten this year. She has become an inclusion class. They don't have enough room in their special needs program for the kids who need help.

That level of education and pressure on such young children is really sad, IMO.

No lavenderrose, I didn't know what you meant because I don't think of opinions /name calling as a feeling and my ds at 3 wouldn't have either. We've always taught him about feelings (happy, sad etc) and it's ok to feel that way so being told to keep his feelings to himself would have confused him..and possibly some of your 3yos? Not being sarcastic just don't equate 'Sarah's fat' with a feeling. I'd be approaching that with talk about kind words etc. though thankfully, he wouldn't have thought to say things like that (too busy not always keeping his hands to himself!)

Agree completely witsender.

Who/what are you referring to, Witsender?

witsender We have been very happy with the program offered in our town. DD progressed much more slowly than DS and they have given her the time she needs.

They do lots of 1-1 in class and since there are only 15 kids with a teacher and an aide. In DDs class this year, because it's an inclusion class, they have two teachers, a classroom assistant, 4 aids and a medical technician (one of the kids has leukemia). It's a better ratio of DC to staff than when she was a baby going to daycare! The local private schools have between 16 and 25 DC in the same age class.

lavenderandrose: I wouldn't either, but it isn't illegal at all. This was made clear under this government, as I understand it.

God this is depressing. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves.

Sounds like you don't understand discipline. Doesn't matter if someone else is getting away with abuse your kid shouldn't be abusing anyone

God this is depressing. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves.

So you don't think that schools should have to meet the needs of tiny little children. Teaching social skills/ behaviour is part of the primary curriculum.

The OP is asking for advice, she wants to sort the situation out. That is what most teachers want.

The reasons that teachers want to leave are not generally the behaviour of individual 5 year olds. It's the management, class sizes, amount of marking, lack of SEN support, ridiculous targets.

I meant eyfs curriculum

Hitting and kicking other children isn't beyond the realms of what can happen in a classroom of 5 year olds.

Hitting etc staff is more unusual.

If you've instigated assessment for asd etc then I assume you have concerns yourself? It may be the sensory environment your ds struggles with. My ds who has asd and had no behavioural issues before starting school developed them due to change of environment and also the bloody sad/happy cloud. It was just too overwhelming and inconsistent for him.

Next time dh is rung to collect him then he needs to say he will remove ds from school only once he has the letter about the exclusion and reintegration meeting.
Then get it on writing what they did, what they are going to do and what outside agencies are going to get involved.

Ignore those holding you responsible. You've quite clearly said you punish at home for what he's doing in school.
This will be controversial - but I'd say stop. It's clearly not working and if behaviour is anxiety/sensory based due to asd or something it can make the behaviour worse.

Increasinglymiddleaged:

As with all things, some balance is needed here. Yes, schools should be teaching social skills and doing what they can do to meet the needs of all children in their care. BUT if a child is hitting staff and other children and running away, this becomes a safety concern and dealing with his behaviour removes the ability of staff to safeguard and teach the other children. By sending him home informally, I assume they are trying to avoid going down the formal exclusion route. This is, presumably, because they want to help. The OP can of course go in all guns blazing about their behaviour management systems but she may regret it, as they might give her what she asks for and deal with her child's behaviour using formal systems that increase his marginalisation and lead to his removal anyway.

Where have I suggested that she goes in all guns blazing? All I have said is that they have to work with her to meet his needs and the parents need an appointment to properly discuss.

Increasingly middle aged, you forgot the fact that everyone knows how to do their job, they are second guessed at every turn, they have to justify their every move and very existence, they are often dealing with kids who have had zero discipline in their home lives, they are blamed for any failing in the child rather than society looking closer to home, they are being expected to raise a nation as well as educate it...

Increasinglymiddleaged:

I didn't mean you said specifically that. I meant the attitude of 'they have to meet his needs' lacks balance and doesn't necessarily acknowledge the reality of the situation. The advice on the thread cumulatively (including yours) might well persuade the OP to be more strident than might be wise in the end.

So is that the case here?

A child has been 'sent home' twice without the parent being brought into school to discuss and formulate a plan. That is fact, unless the OP is lying. No second guessing involved and pretty clearly a meeting was needed after the first time if behaviour was so bad the dad had to collect him.

they have to meet his needs

Well as they haven't talked to the parents about sending him home twice, that clearly lacks balance the other way.

Re "the American education system" - people who use that phrase need to understand that there is no "American education system" as such. Each of the 50 individual states has their own system, and is in charge of it. So expecting a a New York school to be run in the same way as a New Jersey school is pointless, in the sense that they belong to different systems - just as Scotland, NI and England have different systems. Thus starting age for schools varies from state to state, as well.