To think DS's school don't understand discipline?

[mumonashoestring]

DS is 5 and I will freely admit can be a ratbag if overtired or coming down with something BUT at home he understands that he does as he's told or there are consequences (time out, loss of TV or tablet time, loss of a treat for example). Recently DH has been called a couple of times to pick DS up during the school day and bring him home early because he's been slapping or kicking, or running away from staff.

After a couple of incidents of either being told about this behaviour at home time or being asked to pick him up, we were properly clear with him at home that hitting is unacceptable, you need to do as the teachers ask etc. and he had a couple of evenings of no cartoons, no story at bedtime etc. However, talking to him about why he's been so naughty at school he says he's confused - and why? Turns out he's being told that he can't hit, but another child in the class is hitting him and not being disciplined for it - DH checked with one of the teaching assistants and they don't use the word naughty, or unacceptable, or actually do anything to provide a consequence for poor behaviour. Literally all they have is a happy sun or a sad cloud, and DS has recently been sent home with DH being told he's been hitting, but having been put in the happy sun during the day My usually happy little boy is quite obviously worried after the last couple of weeks and I'm getting quite cross with the school seemingly having no policy on discipline but expecting the parents to be able to magically convince kids to do as we say, not as the teachers allow them to do...

Artemisia sent home twice, but with several more comments about behaviour without the same consequence. And I haven't been to see the teacher or head yet because it's secure entry, so if they won't give me an appointment I can't just go and sit outside their office and refuse to leave.

Colours THANK YOU! They've been very casual about it - 'Hi, DS has been a bit troublesome today, we're going to need you to come and pick him up'. I get the impression whether they send him home depends mostly on to how many TAs / staff they have in on the given day. Certainly the behaviour they've described on the two days they've sent him home has been the same as behaviour they've described on other days when DH has just picked him up at 3 as usual.

I have a 5 year old and she shoved another girl on Monday and ran out of the class. I was so upset that she did this. The way this was handled was as such:

1. Immediately after the incident DD was sent to her guidance counselor.
2. Guidance counselor talked to DD and asked her what happened. After getting everything out the guidance counselor was clear with DD that DD was wrong to shove the other girl. It was unacceptable behaviour were the words used according to the report sent home.
3. After DD was told her behaviour was unacceptable she had to write a letter of apology to both her teacher for shoving and running away and the girl she shoved.
4. Both the teacher and the guidance counselor called me after DD had returned to class to inform me what had happened. We agreed on a plan of action which is that DD would have a punishment decided upon by the teacher to remind her 2-3 days after the incident that she needs to keep her hands, feet and body to herself (my request and the teacher said she supported this). The guidance counselor also referred DD to the school SN's team to speak to a school psychologist about handling frustrations. She has been given three 45mins sessions and will be given more if guidance counselor/teacher think she needs it.

The guidance counselor and school psychologist have proceeded to send home a pack for us to work through. It is a couple of books, coloring activities and talking points about acceptable behaviours.

I don't expect schools in the UK to have guidance counselors or SN's staff on hand to help your DC however I do expect the deputy head or head teacher to make themselves available and fulfill the role that the school guidance counselor did for our DD. I also expect there should be action plan on how this is dealt with in terms of sending home a pack and/or referral for an assessment.

As an aside, DH sat DD down when he got home and via facetime we (DH, myself and DD) talked about the incident and what she should do in the future when she is frustrated and things don't go her way. The idea is we give her the tools to learn how to manage this frustration.

Wow want, that's very heavy handed fir a 5 year old, considering what she did, which a lot of 5 year olds do. My reception age ds5 can not write properly yet, I a lot his year are just learning to write. A psychologist too, poor kid.

OP, have you actually tried to make an appointment? You seem to suggest they are shutting you out and that you would somehow need to force access? But I think I've RTFT and you don't seem to have mentioned attempting to make one?

I agree the school should be contacting you (it sounds like they are under the kosh a bit with lots of issues...not an excuse) but , since they haven't you must act and work with them, surely? You need to make them clarify how much of a problem your DS's behaviour is to them and other children

ILikeBeans yes. I've mentioned trying to agree a time with them, and if I hadn't tried I wouldn't know I couldn't get one IYSWIM.

Oh, see now they are being inconsistent.

From now on write everything down, even if it's just a comment from the TA at the classroom door. Dates for everything. Let them see you doing it. If you have records you can say "... oh you are sending him Home? Only on the 3rd of whatever Mrs X mentioned this same behaviour and he wasn't even put on the sad cloud...(long pause). It is startling how helpful people can become when they realise you are organised enough to keep records.

I do strongly suggest that you look into illegal exclusions though IPSEA can help, they have a website with all the necessary information. I've emailed them myself and they were brilliant. The school know they can't do this they are just relying on the fact that you dont. In fact I'd be willing to bet that he gets sent home after lunchtime registration? That way he still gets his attendance mark you see.

Yes, just saw this, sorry :
haven't had an appointment to discuss it yet (trying to agree a time and this is a very recent thing).

Why are they proving so hard to pin down? You mentioned DH is SAHD. Just email them and say 'DH will becoming in at 9.20 on Monday and we look forward to meeting with you'

Blimey! If we sent Early Years and KS1 children home every time they raised their hands to each other, we'd be half empty.

It seems they are singling your child out rather than putting any measures in place. This is very bad practice. The exclusions shouldn't be happening either. I'd put in writing to the head that you request a meeting with the teacher and SENCO to discuss the matter.

mumonashoestring

I have initiated a lot of the meetings. I don't know if there is any SEN issues going on. The main thing I get told is that the 2 children just butt heads. There is very little, that I actually get told, and apparently that is usual for this age group. I know certain things because my son tells me. Also I have seen the teacher pull the other parents aside and have a word, so I know something is happening, with regards to the fact the other parents are being told and hopefully they are reinforcing it at home

What we have said to our son is if the other child is being mean, say you don't want to play with them and walk away. Or if the child is being mean/hitting tell a teacher.

Our main thing is his behaviour at home at the moment, which we know is coming off what is happening in school, but its just doing the same thing over and over again.

Have you emailed and phoned?

Wanttobesuoermum: your school sounds exactly the way a school should be. Are you in the US? Have you ever had kids in the UK system? Things are really at breaking here now in terms of non-teaching staff posts. Schools here in the U.K. can only dream of having dedicated full time welfare staff and psychologists. But schools do recognise that they are whAt's needed. There is just no money

Aren't meetings easier for your DH to handle? He'll be there anyway at 3.30 when the teachers are available.

When we've needed to discuss DS out of his earshot I've brought in his music/tablet with earphones and he's sat in the book corner, or after school club have absorbed him for a short while (which I've paid for). Younger siblings just have to come along as they do to plays and concerts.

I'd dearly love it if that worked ILikeBeans, it's a tactic I use at work quite often, sadly the office don't pass messages half the time, or if they do we get 'not available/busy/doing some kind of activity' - which also makes me fairly sure they're not half as worried as us.

Colours thanks, I'll look at IPSEA and buy DH a notepad!

Sorry forgot to say, the other thing I do is write everything down my son tells me, dates, rough times and what happened so x hit me at breaktime. Also if he did anything, it gives me something to work with, if the behaviour gets worse, since the last meeting (friday) my son hasn't reported anything.

Although I must admit, in all of this my son insists he is innocent as an angel and while he may well be, I think some of the incidents, could of been avoided, maybe, its difficult when you are not there.

Aero Due to DD's teacher last year being unprofessional the assessment she completed when I took DD for her assessment for autism meant she wasn't given a formal diagnosis. I am now on a waitlist for a detailed assessment by a team (the wait list is horrendous). Last year DD was in a class where this unprofessional teacher allowed the DC to be physical towards each other. The shoving on Monday was horrible by the sounds of what the staff and DD told me. The girl was shoved into her locker by DD and really hurt herself.

The school psychologist thing is more to talk through issues about managing frustrations. Our school district has Title 1 funding so we have lots of these professionals available to students to help them manage issues like this.

TBH, yes the school are tough but this is what would have happened at the school I went to as a child in the UK. They were very strict and discipline wasn't an issue. I really liked that they had DD write a letter of apology to her teacher as well as the pupil affected. I think it sends the right message that teachers are to be respected.

Well, next time they call DH to fetch him early (if there is one) he says on the phone. ' I will come and get him, at which point I expect to be met by the most senior member of staff available and will not be leaving until someone speaks to me.'

I myself am a teacher and have been on the end of some of these 'aggression tactics'. They're not very nice but sometimes you need to wage a war to win a war...

curly Yes I am in the US and one of the reasons I am very hesitant to return to the UK is the lack of discipline in schools. DD and DS are 5 and 4. The behaviour of the DC I saw when visiting local primary schools in the UK would never be tolerated here. Not in a million years.

To give a comparison, our school district spends $20k per child per year. The local private schools charge $18-20k per child per year. The public schools are starting to get excellent results given the background these kids come from (47% of pupils received FSM, 65% don't speak English in the home and 30% live in a single parent household).

I don't think that level of funding is true in every school district in the US!

or discipline...

I thought kids didn't start school until 6 in the US?

Oh right want, yiur dd has Autism, I did not realise that. Wow your 5 year old dd can write, my ds 5 can't yet. So that woukd have been impossible for him.

He has a 1 year dev delay though, and soeech delay.

Aero DD hasn't been diagnosed. DS has been. They think DD has it and are treating her as such until we can get her into an appointment with the specialist team. Honestly, it would be easier for me to get a meeting with the Pope.

DD is a great little writer. They focus on literacy here in the early to the detriment of maths. We have both DC attend extra maths lessons outside of school so they can keep up with what I think is a basic normal standard for their age.

Lowdoor Let me shock you with this... In our state most kids start school at 3. It's called PreK3 and most towns here in NJ fund this through their own taxes. Most kids, by the time they start kindergarten, are able to write their full name, all letters and have about 10-15 sight words down. DS who just turned 4 (has ASD) can read, write words with help and has all of his letters down. He has been in school FT since his 3rd birthday in a specialist class with 3 other DC. Do not believe all you read in the papers in the UK about the American education system. There is some majorly amazing stuff going on in schools here. Yeah Trump wants to stop aftercare programs but most parents have responded by saying 'Great, lets have school run from 7-7 so our DC have a hope to complete with the Chinese and Indian DC.'

Their education sounds very comprehensive. I have a daughter who is 10 with ASD, learning difficulties, and dev delay, What do they do for those who are delayed or behind in the American school.

7-7 . Christ almighty.

You know about the youth suicide rate in China and South Korea , right?

My cousin works as a teacher in NY - her experiences do not match yours at all : overworked, underpaid, underfunded, undervalued, overstretched.

Anyway, that's a whole other thread!

You are right Want the US education system has a terrible reputation here. If I think of an American school I imagine metal detectors around the door frames and substitute teachers locked in the janitor's cupboard.

I am glad to hear it is not like that!