To think censorship of birth stories should not be allowed?

[NunntheWiser]

I love Standard Issue magazine, I really do. Earlier this week, Milli Hill was published in the Telegraph extolling the virtues of a natural birth and "imaginary pain" guff guff guff. All well and good.

The excellently sweary Cath Janes wrote an opinion piece about this - about how her own experiences of birth were very, very different to this, and whilst it's not right to scare women, it's unfair to expect them not to be honest about their birth experience.

Hill complained about this opinion piece and has forced Standard Issue to withdraw Janes' article, against the author's wishes. Now, I don't know if the fault lies with Standard Issue for not backing up their author, or if it's Hill threatening some legal recourse to the magazine but since when do women's opinions get censored?

In the meantime, Janes' sweary article can only be found using Google Cache: webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3An6IV7Qmr9GcJ%3Astandardissuemagazine.com%2Fvoices%2Fbirth-muthas%2F%20&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

My first labour ended in an EMCS and it was only during the VBAC pressure interview I found out she'd been back to back. Which is probably why it was unbearable and relentless and ultimately futile. And I thought it was my lack of positive thinking

I had a horrendous pregnancy with hyperemesis being both told 'everyone feels a bit sick' and 'some people have it worse than you' How are either of those opinions helpful? It does not matter one little bit to me how anyone else feels in pregnancy or experiences labour; all I care about is how it made ME feel. If I'd known there was a level of sickness that wasn't 'normal' and I just needed to 'get over it' I wouldn't have seriously considered a termination due to feeling wretched every minute of every day. And probably as a result of my inertia my DD was back to back. And from an hour into the contractions I was uncontrollably vomiting. Would positive thinking have prevented the expulsion of every fluid in my body? I practiced hypnobirthing whilst pregnant yet when actually in labour I managed less than a minute of the CD. I felt like my guts were being ripped out.

When I saw a psychologist because I wanted a ELCS for number 2 she asked me if the fact I vomit whilst on my period is because I find periods disgusting. Not I find them unbelievably painful like my guts are being ripped out. Identical to how I experienced labour including the vomiting. So painful that I'm on the pill despite my DH having had a vasectomy because I can't look after 2 children whilst I'm on that state. Would mood lighting help with period pain do you think?

And the psychologist refused to approve my request for a ELCS because I'd come to terms with my PTSD so well. Right. So a solider recovers from PTSD so well you send him back onto the battlefield despite him begging you not to? What monster would do that?

I felt so traumatised after the EMCS I literally didn't care that my DD hadn't fed. I just wanted to sleep. Forever. Now I know not feeding for over 6 hours post birth is dangerous but no one told me and I was too out of it to care. As it was 1am when I got to the ward DH was kicked out and no one was really interested in how I would cope without him. I resent everything that happened with DD1s birth.

DD2 was a ELCS despite a huge battle which ruined the last 10 or so weeks of my pregnancy. I had to get PALS involved because of how upset the psychologist made me and how bullied I felt. I told her she wasn't making me feel listened to but she kept telling me a VBAC was best. For who? I had all the positive thinking in the world and DD1 didn't come out vaginally.

That women are left with PND and PTSD from horrendous births is not given the importance it deserves. If the baby is safe the system's outcomes are met. Whilst no mother would disagree with it being a hugely critical outcome, it certainly isn't the only one. What kind of mother was left for DD1 to be looked after by the horrendous experience I had? (there was a lot more to it than I've said but I don't feel able to get into the detail) I was so happy with DD2s birth. I was 100% listened to, I did skin to skin in theatre, she fed within an hour of birth and I was so ready and able to be her mum. Feeling listened to is a huge part if recovery and Cath I'm sorry even some years post birth you're still not being listened to by the likes of Milli Vanilli. I listened to your story and I empathise with your life changing experience. I wanted 2 children more than I didn't want to be pregnant or give birth again but I fully understand anyone who has such a dreadful experience never wanting to repeat it again. People say 'oh I bet it won't be as bad the second time' well sickness wise it was worse and birth wise it was only better because I bloody fought for it.

Keep on telling your story because people like me are listening to you.

alpacino but by urging your girls to have ELCS, you might be pushing them to have utterly traumatic experiences. Mine was. It left me with ptsd.
My vbs were a walk in the park however...

No one knows how they will feel after the event. Or during it. I am amazed just how different my experiences were.

For quite a while before I had kids I was absolutely mind-numbingly petrified of childbirth - I used to feel sick with fear when I saw pregnant women in the street.

Watching lots of One Born Every Minute strangely helped me overcome my fears when I was pregnant. I also used natal hypnotherapy in preparation for the big day, lots of ante-natal yoga/aqua etc. In the end I had no pain relief other than paracetamol and tens machine (though I used gas and air for the last 7 minutes of my last delivery).

I did feel amazing afterwards but more than that I felt incredibly blessed to have had positive experiences. I did want to shout about it to anyone who would listen bcoz I was so relieved and happy but also bcoz I wanted people to know that it was possible to have a positive experience rather than feeling terrified and assuming it would be awful. Of course it hurt to be in labour and no-one should deny the pain but there is nothing wrong in putting forward the idea that it really is possible if medically you/baby have no complications to have a positive birth experience where preparation involves focussing on your mind. There should be absolutely no sense whatsoever of making a woman feel lke a failure for having interventions/medical assistance. Just that more women should feel empowered that they have more strength than they probably realise - I'm definitely an example of that myself.

Absolutely don't agree with Milli trying to prevent publication of other article but recognise legal implications on part of Standard.

Headofthehive55, If it's not too personal a question, what happened with your section? I'm currently down for an elective section, and I've only heard good things (save for the rare complication), so I'm interested to know if I'm being naive about things?

Headof surely it's about giving women the full facts so they can choose their method of delivery?

How many of us knew the stats for instrumental delivery of a 1st baby?
(stats are often skewed by the fact the subsequent babies tend to both more easily, with less intervention or complications)
Or the likelihood of being incontinent? (for any period of time. Medical staff don't even count loss of continence during the first 2 months post birth, all part of recovering from a VB apparently....)
Or the likelihood of tearing/episiotomy/needing stitches and how likely it will become infected or break down?
The number of hours you will be in pain of labour?
Likelihood of permanent damage to baby?
etc. etc.
Compare that with how an ELCS will go, risks of major abdominal surgery, risks to baby, effect on subsequent pregnancies etc.
I also think that in 'pro VB' cultures a CS is seen as a failure. Failure to do what your body was meant to. Failure to allow your baby a "normal" delivery. Failure to experience what all mothers should experience. A let down. I would and frequently do question the legitimacy of these assertions and this culture but it can and does contribute to negative emotions surrounding CS.

Everyone I know who elected to VBAC wishes they hadn't and all had worse recoveries than from CS but we are all different. The key is for women to be fully and honestly informed. As at today they simply are not. I've already talked of how my ELCS was a calm and positive experience for me, DH and our baby compared to the horror show of the VB birth of our first.

Unfortunately I found the opposite. I found people were positive about ELCS, and poo poohed my experiences. Unfortunately no one knows what side effects you will encounter.
Certainly I have seen women having bowel ops due to csection so I don't think it's entirely true to think you may escape that complication.

Almost certainly mine caused complications with the next pregnancy, leading to problems with our next child which has caused ramifications for her life.

I do think people should be aware, of good and bad and complications with all methods. Mine is only one experience, but it's a valid one to share.

No tearing or episiotomy with subsequent births. No instrumental delivery. No incontinence. I certainly experienced pressure to have a repeat and somehow I was a lesser mother because I wasn't prepared to put myself through surgery.

Hi, as this thread is about me I thought I would take a moment to reply to it.

First of all, as another poster has pointed out, the Standard Issue was taken down temporarily while I discussed the content with the editor. They did not have any legal obligation to do this, but they did it because they wanted to be fair to me and there were a lot of unpleasant things written about me in that article, including a couple of paragraphs suggesting that I would have no sympathy for a war veteran with ptsd, which were hurtful and I felt, unnecessarily personal. The editor agreed and removed them. He then published my response to the article.

It's such a shame that the original article I wrote for the Telegraph has caused some people to feel so angrily towards me. I think the main problem was the headline, which talked about birth pain being a myth! This is certainly not at all what I believe, I've had three babies and experienced the agony of childbirth believe me! And in my book The Positive Birth Book, there is LOADS about coping with birth pain, including a whole chapter of ideas in an A to Z format.

What I was trying to say in the article (headline has now been changed but too late in many ways, alas), was that there is an awful lot of focus on how agonisingly awful labour is and many pregnant women feel scared by this and go into labour absolutely terrified, which I believe is counter productive.

Anyway I just wanted to join in this chat. I am not a poisonous troll as some on this thread have suggested! I am just a human, a mum, and someone who is working really hard to try to help women have better birth experiences. Do ask me anything you like I'm happy to chat, Milli x

Ive had two unmedicated home births but I think Milli is a bit misguided.

My labours are fast and we're both horrifically painful and left me in shock afterwards.

It's ok to experience labour as painful and hard and I don't agree with trying to whitewash it into a rosy experience.

I did all the "right" things and it was still pretty awful.

If that's what you were trying to say, it should be pretty clear to you that you failed. And it's your fault. The headline may not have been particularly helpful, but your words were also a problem. Women are objecting to them with good reason.

Sorry Milli posted before I saw your post but I do think the original article made a valid point.

Yes, it's clear that the article upset people and I'm really sorry for that.

However some of the comments on this thread are so horrible, personal, and basically to me - online bullying.

I don't think that's ok.

And to clarify I am not trying to whitewash labour into a rosy experience. If you read the piece (or anything else I've ever written, or my book), then you will see that's absolutely the opposite of what I'm all about.

I started the Positive Birth Movement to improve birth and make it more positive, because i was so saddened by the birth stories I was hearing from people who were not being properly treated with dignity and respect, or given real choices. I am very aware of birth trauma having experienced it myself and also having worked with many many women over the past few years who have also experienced it.

I did read it yes. And that is how it read to me.
I love your movement and have loads of respect for it and you but I do think maybe we should be a bit more honest that even a textbook natural birth can feel horrendous at the time. I'm glad I didn't have drugs or transfer but it was still very very painful both times to the point of me wanting to die as I couldn't take any more.
But having said that it was worse second time as I knew what was coming so maybe you're right and we shouldn't tell people!

Thanks for joining in, Milli. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you fundamentally on the point of the removed paragraph and the "unpleasant things written" about you. I wrote THAT paragraph as an analogy and at no point did I say anything personal about you although I disagree vehemently with your opinion. That par was very clearly analogous too, as my ed agreed in our correspondence, although she felt it would be "easier" to remove it and give you a say. You may feel comforted by the fact that I have told her that I will never write for her again.

The only portion of the original article that was removed was the one small par regarding injured troops and, because it was very clearly an analogy, I stand buy it 100 per cent (It was 61 words. I did the maths and everything). Every other part of the article ran as I wrote it and as it was commissioned (this was SI's idea, not mine). The link is in the OP if anyone wants to gauge how personal I have been.

Milli, I have been a broadsheet journalist and and national mag editor for twenty years. When you came onto my Twitter feed and very publicly called me unprofessional I was utterly stunned, as were my colleagues in the profession. It was your attack that was personal. Mine was solely, and always has been, only about your opinion, upon which I have the right to disagree.

If we need to agree to disagree, so be it. Debate about childbirth should always be encouraged but debate about my professionalism ends right now.

Now, I have work to be getting on with...

Thanks @sisinisawa

I guess my thinking was that we already hear a lot about how horrendous birth can be and that in that particular article, I was trying to redress the balance a bit and say - what if we thought about it differently?

And maybe you could answer the question for me - was it horrendous and did you want to die for the entire labour? Because that was really my main point...that yes, there is pain, but it is not constant pain (unless baby is in a tricky position or other issues, but not in the average normal labour - any midwife will tell you that constant pain is a sign something is not going right).

I think the point about the time between contractions is a valid one and a helpful one for women to focus on. Certainly it helped me to look forward to that time during the toughest moments and I know a lot of women really enjoy their labour in particular this time.

How can we have a conversation about how much some women enjoy labour without upsetting those who had a terrible or even traumatic time - seems to be the key question to me?

Because while hearing about how birth can be improved / made better can be very upsetting for people who have already had their babies and had a really awful experience, it might actually be helpful for all of those women who have not had their babies yet?

Thank you for not attacking me in your response. Milli x

The time between contractions isn't valid because you are climbing up and coming down a mountain. As soon as you've come down you are heading up to that peak again. There is no sleep or rest, (not for me anyway) And I say this as someone who had two natural births without pain relief and used to be a massive twat about it (i was much younger then) One finishes and you wait for then next.

pbmmilli, if you've read all of this thread, you will see that basically pretty much no one is with you, on your 'it's mostly painful free/pain free for x percentage' rubbish. Probably in excess of a hundred women that all say you are not being helpful.

And you think you are being bullied online. Poor diddums. Maybe you just need a more positive mental attitude to our comments. Anyway, if you add up the time it would take to type the comments and divide it by the length of time the thread has been running, you may find that we are only being meanies for about 10% of the time, so basically, not mean at all.

To minimise pain in childbirth is a huge slap in the face to women. Its dishonest gaslighting and harmful to women. Thankfully we don't tend to die from it any more, but we often still end up ripping apart sensitive body parts from it. Maybe that won't hurt if we think positively.

Maybe we should do away with pain relief and anaesthetics altogether. Let's do major surgery from now on with just positive thinking!!

As the OP, I would have to say Milli that I haven't seen any personal attacks or bullying. I have seen people vociferously argue with your opinion - i.e. hold a debate. I have seen people angry about the experiences they have had, and furious that the insinuation that life-or-death surgery could be avoided by spritzing perfume.

My understanding of a personal attack / bullying is - for example - someone criticising your family, your personal appearance, your professionalism (as you did to Janes via Twitter) - not someone holding a contrary opinion.

Perhaps this is where this whole debacle came from. Did you mistake Janes' disagreement with you with a personal attack?

I would highly encourage you to report any personal attacks or bullying using the Mumsnet "Report post" function. They will review the comment and decide if it abides by community standards. Allegations of bullying are rightly taken seriously.

No milli I'm with Cath. I believed all your natural birth bollocks. I believed it.
DC1 epidural episiotomy ventouse
DC2 the same
So I read all the literature, all of it, including the hypnobirthing.
Told myself my fear/adrenaline had caused problems
Told myself my epidurals had led to interventions
Told myself if I could just get through transition I'd be fine, natural need to push etc
Told myself all that...based on a lot of the crap you peddle

My natural birth was without doubt the worst of the three, caused tearing, prolapse, PTSD and being unable to make love for two years.

So you surely must be able to understand that, whilst that might not be the case for all women, that is the reality for some women and therefore articles like yours are both triggering and an extra kick in the cunt.

There is a "conspiracy of silence" re the realities of childbirth: horror stories are deemed to be just that, preparing for childbirth trainers talk about a little "pressure", they don't talk about being split in two/ring of fire/tearing/pushing a baby back up the vagina/even switching off epis at the end (that was a shock with dc1). That might be kinder but it does not do women any favours.
So...you can have your opinion, write your books (huge market for it) but I will stand with Cath and the many women on here who are calling you out. You were personally responsible for DC3's birth going the way it went but your philosophies and propaganda led to me being in that situation in the first place. There is a reason obgyns make the choices for their own births that they do.

^were not

although that could well have been a Freudian slip

although that could well have been a Freudian slip

Surely a writers main measure of success is "did they manage to get across what they were trying to communicate?"
Clearly milli did not get across what she says is the intended point of her article to any of the posters here, therefore she should probably re-evaluate her article.

Clearly some people are determined to misunderstand what I'm trying to say and therefore perhaps it's pointless getting involved in the discussion here. My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that.

I don't for a second think that if women 'were just a bit more positive' or 'spritzed a bit of perfume' then they would have better births.

If you want a genuine discussion then I'm up for that as I love feedback but if you just want to angrily mud-sling then I've got better stuff to do. It's also pointless for you as well I might add because I am actually at the front line working really hard to improve birth in every way that I can, because I really DO understand how horrendous it can be for women and (even though I am done having babies), that really matters to me - so - you have picked the wrong target. All the best x