To think censorship of birth stories should not be allowed?

[NunntheWiser]

I love Standard Issue magazine, I really do. Earlier this week, Milli Hill was published in the Telegraph extolling the virtues of a natural birth and "imaginary pain" guff guff guff. All well and good.

The excellently sweary Cath Janes wrote an opinion piece about this - about how her own experiences of birth were very, very different to this, and whilst it's not right to scare women, it's unfair to expect them not to be honest about their birth experience.

Hill complained about this opinion piece and has forced Standard Issue to withdraw Janes' article, against the author's wishes. Now, I don't know if the fault lies with Standard Issue for not backing up their author, or if it's Hill threatening some legal recourse to the magazine but since when do women's opinions get censored?

In the meantime, Janes' sweary article can only be found using Google Cache: webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3An6IV7Qmr9GcJ%3Astandardissuemagazine.com%2Fvoices%2Fbirth-muthas%2F%20&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Oh and Milli Vanilli or whatever her name is can the shut the fuck up.

I support you Cath.

Thanks Cath, another one here who thought my positive attitude would affect the outcome. After labour I wanted to smash my hypnobirthing cd to bits. Keep up the good work

Great thread and totally support Cath. Am very disappointed in Standard Issue.

I'm due to give birth to my second child any day now and I am terrified. I did all the NCT and NHS ante-natal classes going with my first and everybody said 'oh first babies are always late, first labours are long and you'll have hours to get to the hospital'. Not so for me. DS was early and arrived like a bull in a china shop in less than two hours. I had continuous contractions (no 77% off for me!) which is uncommon but routinely happens in a fast birth, I lost a lot of blood which nobody could explain at the time or since, and when I got to hospital screaming in agony with blood running down my legs and 10cm dilated, I was told to wait in the waiting room. I hurt more than I ever ever imagined and I was way too late for pain relief. I was traumatised by the whole ordeal, yet for the four days I was in hospital practically every HCP I encountered congratulated me on giving birth with no pain relief, like I was a hero. I was no hero, I was broken and confused and desperate for somebody to explain how something 'natural' could hurt so much.

So here I am, shitting myself about doing it all again. I can totally understand why people don't, but at least this time I am not in rainbows and unicorns hypnobirthing land. I hope for better than last time because it's all I can do.

In my second "straightforward" elective C-Section, I found out by reading my medical notes A WHOLE YEAR after giving birth that I had suffered a post-partum haemorrhage. Nobody told me at the time, or afterwards. "Protecting" women from what is happening is disgusting, and smacks of patriarchal control taking agency away from women and their own bodies.

Scaring women about labour intentionally isn't kind, but neither is setting them up to think that they can meditate throughout it and making them feel like a failure when they can't.

Another vote of support for Cath from me.

Oh God, you have to see this. If a woman states she is "not coping" in childbirth, why not see if you can help by spritzing some fragrance around, whispering a bit or offering a social worker consult?

Literally no mention of serious medical situations that might require intervention, and avoid death of child and parent.

magicalbirth.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/painful-birth/

for the four days I was in hospital practically every HCP I encountered congratulated me on giving birth with no pain relief, like I was a hero

I saw this in hospital... the woman in the bed next to me had a precipitate labour (45 mins!) giving birth to a large baby. As it was her 3rd child they were keen to send her home straightaway. She was clearly in shock, shaking and asking to be kept in but nobody listened - they just kept on repeating how well she'd done, how fantastic she was etc. She kept saying she hadn't done anything and that it all happened very quickly and that she was shocked. She looked like she'd seen a ghost but they couldn't get rid of her fast enough .

Cath I felt exactly as you did about the thought of having a second child. There was no way I could give birth again.

I planned an ELCS, on the NHS if they'd let me or we'd spend every last penny of our savings if they refused. Luckily I campaigned hard enough to be granted my NHS ELCS (a topic for a whole other thread). It was honestly lovely in comparison. Calm, planned and pain free. No exhaustion and no loss of control. The recovery was a walk in the park in comparison to my VB recovery.

Until it was granted I was unable to sleep, waking at 3am with palpitations at the fear of another VB. I ended up hysterical waiting to see a midwife because an NCT magazine had some pictures of positions to labour in and it triggered a massive flashback...

So if you ever feel yourself being drawn back to the idea of a second, I highly recommend ELCS. If not, I totally get why

I agree with @sycamore's excellent comments.

I've just had my first baby and though I was never opposed to medical interventions, I did everything possible to prepare for a 'natural' birth as I'd read all about epidurals leading to a cascade of interventions etc.
I listened to the tapes, went to yoga, bounced on a ball, read the books.
However I went overdue, was induced, developed sepsis in labour and the baby then had to be delivered by c section as there was only a limited time to get her out as she was big and in a strange position. I pushed like a trooper but there was nothing I could have done to have changed the fact that she was not coming out easily.
I am thankful I was in a hospital at the time and for the excellent midwives and surgeons.
However it still took me eight hours from asking for an epidural to receiving one due to a shortage of anesthetists - I coped in the meantime with a couple of paracetamol as G&A made me violently ill but all I could think about was the pain. Once the epidural was in I instantly felt far calmer and mentally much more in control of the situation.
My first thought as the drugs hit my system was anger as to why women have to fight for such effective pain relief.
I had believed that an epidural would mean being tethered to the bed and would slow down labour. I was never told until I saw the anesthetist that I could control the epidural myself so I could limit the drugs in order to still feel the contractions and move my legs but keep some vestige of control and dignity.
The doctors said it was an entirely sensible decision. Given the circumstances, I honestly believe that labouring for hours longer without pain relief could have been too much for my body to cope with and would have led to more difficulties. I've recovered well from the birth and was on my feet very quickly.I put this down to luck and partly to being in a good physical state before the birth.
I do wonder if instead of hypnosis, candles and aromatherapy we should instead be putting greater emphasis on encouraging women to boost their physical fitness if at all possible in order to facilitate a good recovery. My health care trusts subsidises hypnobirthing courses but perhaps this money would be better going to fund antenatal exercise classes or swimming, so women can maximise their chances of getting back to physical health rapidly iif interventions are required.

Skilled - you hit the nail on the head with this...

...Vagina opening up like a flower - No it felt like a flower being run over by a lawn mower and then set on fire...

Sums it up exactly.

I remember lying in theatre with an epidural in, having my perineum stitched back together, thinking "I've just had a baby and I feel nothing". There was no joy, no elation, no rush of love. Just... blankness. If only I'd known that that feeling would persist for months, I would have asked for mental health support and got myself on some professional's radar. As it was, I suffered horribly and alone for weeks and months with only the support of my husband and parents. I'm so lucky I got out the other side without needing to be admitted to a mother and baby unit.

And it was all due to trauma. I joke and say that when my first child was born it wasn't the best day of my life, it was the worst. But it's true. The experience I had when I had an ELCS four years later was like comparing night with day.

I do wonder if instead of hypnosis, candles and aromatherapy we should instead be putting greater emphasis on encouraging women to boost their physical fitness if at all possible in order to facilitate a good recovery

I agree with this. I swam several times a week until the end of my first pregnancy, used my fitness ball, etc. However I suffered with hyperemesis and it was bad on my last week. The last 2 days I could just keep fluid down. After labouring for 12 hours I was dizzy with hunger (didn't stop me from dry retching and throwing up bile during labour). By the time you come to the pushing stage you are usually so far from your best physically - but this tends to be dismissed by professionals.

Being able to sleep in the sodding postnatal wards would also help! But there are enough threads about that.

passport I did think about having a second child but was categorically told on three occasions by three different medical professionals that I would not be allowed to have a cesarean rather than an induction if it were necessary.

Everyone just says 'you probably wouldn't need to be induced again', but I'm 40 this year, the risks of all sorts of things are going up and I would be at increased risk of preeclampsia again because I had it before. The risk is there and the thought of being induced again terrifies me.

I can't stay off this thread. It has unleashed something and I feel I have way more to say. It's been nearly six years since I gave birth and I still find it hard to talk about. I won't write a long account of the details but it was not straightforward. Interventions were required, it was too late for pain relief...etc.

I have no doubt that the trauma I experienced was at the root of my subsequent PND and difficulty bonding with my DD. I go over it in my head sometimes, wondering what might have gone better...asking myself whether the difficulties I experienced were due to something I did wrong. But I always arrive at the same conclusion: NO!

My experience was partly down to bad luck, bad timing and biology. But mostly, despite listening to the advice of my midwife and my NCT group leader, I had not been prepared for the reality of what I was facing. I'd gone to the ante-natal classes and learned how to breathe through the contractions, rock my pelvis to ease the pain in my hips, count backwards while visualising candle flames going out one by one...and I listened to it all, not knowing any better.

I turned up at hospital armed with a CD of relaxing tunes, a water spray and a wooden ladybird for my DH to massage my back with. I also had a lipsalve, because the book said my lips might get dry from panting.

Fucking lipsalve.

What an absolutely useless pile of crap that all turned out to be in the face of an episiotomy and forceps with no anaesthetic.

When I try to talk about it now I still cry. They told me the memory of the pain would go away but it never has. Mostly I cry with frustration and anger because I feel I was lied to. Nobody warned me. I actually believed I was going to grunt and pant my way through it with the help of imaginary candle flames and a wooden ladybird. When I hear the word "hypnobirthing" now, my bum clenches like a vice and I feel my gut twist with pure fury.

The ignorance and arrogance of Milli Hill's article makes my blood boil. It isn't just an opinion. It isn't helpful advice. It is irresponsible, uninformed and damaging to first time mothers who know no better. And Standard Issue have badly let down their readers. What a sickening betrayal.

Births are as different as people.
I hated every moment of my ELCS. I felt nothing. But suffered with trauma afterwards. In fact when I did get pregnant again I just wanted to miscarry. I think people should talk about their experiences, to show the range good and bad. You never know how it will go.
Oh and my VBAC I can't even say was painful. I've had worse periods.

I did think about having a second child but was categorically told on three occasions by three different medical professionals that I would not be allowed to have a cesarean rather than an induction if it were necessary

That makes me so angry mirime. No woman should be told she has no choice in the manner in which she gives birth. No woman should have to submit to the opinions of a couple of obstetricians. I fucking hate this patriarchal, patronising, "you don't know what's best" attitude pregnant women encounter when requesting c sections.

I chose abdominal surgery and all its inherent risks. My body my choice. I can't believe women are still being told they can't choose what happens to their bodies.

Well, except I can

And, needless to say, compared to what I suffered first time around it was a walk in the park.

We do need to be honest.
My first 2 were sections. Ist an emcs and was so traumatised by this that when the 2nd came along 14 months later my wonderful consultant said he was quite happy to say I needed a section again. I told him I was worried that people would think I was a coward , he was cross and told me that I could tell them he had ordered it and that might shut them up.
So my third child was my first vac. No pain relief at all. Very painful. I thought I was dying, infact I was convinced that they would put me to sleep like an animal in pain because to be in this mount of pain couldn't be ok.
Anyway she arrived and I remember looking at women with babies and wondering why none ever spoke about the realities of child birth. It was like some secret club that you only joined and only understood once you had suffered in that way.

I went to my antenatal group with her, many of the women were still pregnant . I had been invited to show her off and talk about the birth. The birth wasn't horrific but I am an honest person and said that it fucking really hurt. I was gently chastised for saying that by the group leader. They only wanted to hear positive experiences in order not to frighten that other women. Fuck that. My experience wasn't bad but I bloody wish someone had told me beforehand that it would be painful and that that is ok.

Everyone's experiences different.
I walked out on an obstetric appointment as he was saying I had to have a c section. No real reason, just because I'd had one before!
I agree with people being allowed to say how it really was for them. I've told people how much the csection experience was awful for me, but I can see people don't want to hear it. I felt that was a conspiracy, that somehow a csection was a good experience. Nobody, nobody was prepared to say it might not be brilliant.

www.amazon.co.uk/Birth-Trauma-Post-Traumatic-Disorder-Following/dp/0956702473?tag=mumsnetforum-21

I've read this book and found it very helpful. I also had a debrief after the first birth with the head of midwifery in preparation for the second, and although I wept through the entire thing, it helped enormously to understand what had happened, and I did go on to have a very straightforward, even pleasurable, second birth,. It was still immensely painful though!

Really interesting thread. I'm 30 weeks and a bit sick to death of the 'if you can grow a baby, you can birth a baby, you can feed a baby' mantra. No you can't necessarily birth (or feed) your baby without medical intervention. I feel a bit like how Bridget Jones described smokers....outcasts of society skulking in the shadows type thing. Because I don't want Daisy classes and hypno birthing and all that. I want a hospital, a bloody good doctor and lots of pain relief.

Bigbuttons, your experience with your NCT group illustrates exactly what needs to change:

...I was gently chastised for saying that by the group leader. They only wanted to hear positive experiences in order not to frighten that other women...

This is why so many women approach childbirth with a rosy, optimistic and completely unrealistic idea of what awaits them. My NCT leader, when asked to describe what labour feels like, compared it with "having a tummy bug, when you get that overwhelming urge to poo...but more intense." Downplayed, to say the least.

I get that it is hard to provide a description of something that is different for every woman. But perhaps a few honest stories of how bad it can be...alongside the rosy tales of straightforward, textbook deliveries managed with nothing more than deep breathing and a whiff of geranium oil...might reduce the levels of sheer shock and terror when it turns out not to be a walk in the park.

I wish I'd had realistic expectations. I wish someone had been brave enough to tell me the truth. I wish I'd learned this stuff in school, let alone NCT! Yes, I'd have been scared...but better to deal with the fear beforehand, educate myself and think carefully about how much suffering I'm prepared to go through. I allowed my midwife to talk me out of an epidural because of unrealistic expectations. My experience could have been so much better if I'd known the facts instead of having a head full of fluffy nonsense about how well childbirth sometimes goes.

only read first page, i had a miraculous easy wonderful first birth and its not something i ever wanted to aspire to again and second time round I had a requested ELC which was FAR FAR better.

Sorry but good birth is just like a good crap, its bodily function and how big it is.

All women need to know its going into war, you need to arm yourself with all hte information you can . I shall strongly be urging my girls to have ELC like I read most health care proffs do.

The thing is I don't think I couldn't bring myself to be truly honest if I were asked. My experinces were not horrendous, painful, but not horrendous.
A colleague at work is pregnant and so excited about it, rightly so. I could never say to her "btw it's going to hurt like nothing you've ever experienced before, you might well think you are going to die, you might well suffer tearing, loss of continence, prolapse and your body will never be the same again. You might well be traumatised and suffer PND"

I have no idea whether she would want to know. I am not sure I wanted to know, not before hand anyway, but I wished afterwards that I had been made aware. I can't reconcile those 2 opposite thoughts.

I had 3 further vbacs and with each one I was more able to deal with the pain. I could be more objective abut what was happening. I was also fortunate enough to have 'easy' births with no complications and extremely short transition to pushing to birth stages. Christ knows how I would have coped if the really nasty stuff lasted hours and hours.

Another Kraken fan here. I think after a while I just couldn't be bothered to sugar coat what labour was like if the subject came up. Two straight forward labours which I quite enjoyed but even still I remember limping to the toilet with scissor clamps on the cut umbilical cord hanging out my vadge and dripping blood as I went. I didn't expect that. It is visceral and bloody. Without wishing to change topic I am also open about flushing my miscarried baby down the loo because I had NO idea I wasn't the first when I was in that position and was terrified. If I'd known this happens every single day the crushing guilt and panic may well have been eased. I have often thought the rates of undiagnosed PTSD in new mothers and fathers may be much higher than expected. And "baby blues" is not just a little mood dip but a serious reaction to trauma. That bloody term "baby blues" diminishes it and sugar coats it too.