To think censorship of birth stories should not be allowed?

[NunntheWiser]

I love Standard Issue magazine, I really do. Earlier this week, Milli Hill was published in the Telegraph extolling the virtues of a natural birth and "imaginary pain" guff guff guff. All well and good.

The excellently sweary Cath Janes wrote an opinion piece about this - about how her own experiences of birth were very, very different to this, and whilst it's not right to scare women, it's unfair to expect them not to be honest about their birth experience.

Hill complained about this opinion piece and has forced Standard Issue to withdraw Janes' article, against the author's wishes. Now, I don't know if the fault lies with Standard Issue for not backing up their author, or if it's Hill threatening some legal recourse to the magazine but since when do women's opinions get censored?

In the meantime, Janes' sweary article can only be found using Google Cache: webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3An6IV7Qmr9GcJ%3Astandardissuemagazine.com%2Fvoices%2Fbirth-muthas%2F%20&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Milli
My labours were so intense that no there wasn't any down time at all. It was just incredibly hard and a bit scary.
I know some women do find it relaxing and calm but I can't imagine how personally.
I'd be really happy to chat with you if you want? I don't want to out myself on here but I can give you my email. I really am all for natural and positive birth but your article didn't ring true for me at all.

Hi all

While we welcome discussion and debate on Mumsnet; we don't allow personal attacks and will be removing any posts on this thread that we feel cross the line into that territory.

Thanks

MNHQ

I am pleased that someone feels able to speak out that birth can be positive. I've had hugely negative comments when I've mentioned I enjoyed a couple of my births. As if my experience wasn't valid. There is a range of experiences, and we should allow all to be represented.

@blueskyrain i do think you're finding it hard to hear what I'm actually saying. I really am trying to understand what you are trying to say and it's quite possible that my article hit the wrong note - I'm human and I have three small children and I had a book coming out and I had limited time to write something and I thought I had got it right but maybe not? Having said that i've had lots of really positive feedback too so it seems like this is an issue that divides people and therefore needs more respectful debate.

It's unkind and false to say that I only care about making money from my book. However, I do want to tell you that my book has a really wide range of information in it, about pain, about coping with pain, about your position, about the baby's position, and about every possible eventuality from caesarean to baby loss. It is not a fluffy wuffy book that says, 'think positive and light a tea light'.

I can assure you that I am listening to the comments on this thread, I actually really do care about this. I have already said that I am sorry if the piece I wrote was misjudged. It might also be nice if some of the people on this thread who have attacked me personally thought again about how that might affect and impact on another person. Above all I believe in sisterhood and in supporting other women and raising them up. I don't see how some of the comments on this thread are remotely helpful.

Clearly some people are determined to misunderstand what I'm trying to say and therefore perhaps it's pointless getting involved in the discussion here. My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that.

Worrying and yet not at all surprising to see you write this milli. Clearly you think the only way anyone could object to what you've written is because they've misunderstood. The fault couldn't possibly be with you, or your words.

You say you're listening, but you're obviously not. You came on here to tell us why you're right.

@elisavetafartsonira I don't know who you are but I do wish you would get in touch with me personally. My email is [email protected]. I am Milli Hill on facebook. I am totally listening and have several times apologised for the upset that my article seems to have caused. I care deeply. I did not come on here to tell you why I am right, at all! I came because some of the comments felt like a personal attack on me and I wanted to defend myself. I would really love to talk to you properly about birth and find common ground and build bridges. We absolutely have to build bridges if we want to improve birth.

I have also made the same offer to Cath who wrote the piece that this discussion is about, but she has not got back to me.

For the record (as it is the title of the thread) I had absolutely no desire to censor her birth story, I would NEVER censor any birth story, and have even been running the All That Matters project for the past 3 years as a place for women to share their traumatic stories. What I wanted to be removed were the unkind and hurtful allegations that I did not care about other people's feelings, even those who had been traumatised by war. I dearly wish that Cath had got in touch with me before she published that piece (as I would have done had I been writing something similar, as a journalist I think it's pretty disrespectful to write destructive things about another person without giving them a chance to at least defend themselves).

So please - get in touch with me. Talk to me. I am totally listening. I want to take on board all women's views and experiences, I have been doing so for years and will continue to do so. Milli x

It seems that the problem is gaslighting. Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation that involves denying the way another person thinks or feels. In the case of childbirth, that means denying that childbirth is painful or traumatic and insisting that those who believe so have been brainwashed. In the case of an article that angers people, gaslighting involves insisting, "that's not what I said," "you don't understand what I wrote," "you must be confused."

When a woman says she had an excruciating labor, no one should patronize her and tell her she is remembering it wrong, or has been tricked by others who describe childbirth as agonizing, or is over-sensitive. And when a woman is angered by an article that implies her pain was the result of the way that she looked at the situation, no one should tell her that's not what the article said.

^"My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that".

^"My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that".

I commented on that, and got censored for it. On a thread about censorship...

My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that.

Speaks volumes...

Milli, I've been so busy I haven't seen anything from you asking me to get in touch, so please don't feel that I have ignored you. If you want to email me feel free to do so at [email protected].

As for me contacting you before writing the opinion piece I didn't do that because it is never, ever done in journalism. Had I written an article about you I would have contacted you, as I do every time I write an article. This, though, was an opinion piece which is completely different. Opinion pieces do not get automatic rights of reply because they are opinions and inherently one-way. Surely you understand this as your own opinion piece in The Telegraph was also one-way, as it should have been.

Do Giles Coren/ Caitlin Moran/ Bridget Christie give rights of reply when writing about restaurants, poverty or feminism? Of course not. Milli, please try to understand the difference between balanced journalism and opinion pieces and refrain from saying I have been "disrespectful" and "destructive" immediately. I will NOT tolerate that language about my work any longer on this forum or anywhere else. You are now straying into the territory for which some people on this thread have been removed.

If you would like to further discuss the difference between opinion pieces and balanced articles I'd be happy to refer you to several journalism forums.

Thank you.

Ha! I hadn't read the most recent posts! great minds eh, GinSwig and BlueSky

Thanks but no thanks milli. I'll engage with you on the public forum you've chosen to access.

Given some of the things you've said to James Titcombe, I don't trust you. Given the way you're trying to problematise paragraphs you didn't like in Cath's article, I don't trust you. Given the way you're minimising the experiences of women that don't neatly fit the argument you were attempting to make in your article, I don't trust you. Because of this, I wouldn't feel safe or comfortable being anything other than anonymous in discussion.

And you are coming on here to tell us why you're right and we're wrong. We're just misunderstanding, you see. It's our faults that what you've written was, as another poster eloquently phrased it, one more kick in the cunt.

Do Giles Coren/ Caitlin Moran/ Bridget Christie give rights of reply when writing about restaurants, poverty or feminism? Of course not. Milli, please try to understand the difference between balanced journalism and opinion pieces and refrain from saying I have been "disrespectful" and "destructive" immediately. I will NOT tolerate that language about my work any longer on this forum or anywhere else. You are now straying into the territory for which some people on this thread have been removed.

Quite, cath. And accusing people who have provided robust criticism of bullying is, in itself, bullying.

Oh I didn't know you were a mumsnetter @dramytuteur

For those who are not familiar with Dr A, she is one of the most notorious trolls in the world of birth and breastfeeding. Her blog is a stream of personal and usually fairly poisonous attacks and I personally will not have anything to do with her.

So thanks for the discussion, but now that she has joined the conversation I am afraid I will have to leave. I think people on this thread who are able to think for themselves will see that I am not trying to manipulate anyone, or gaslight. However I know from experience that the more you protest in a discussion with Dr A, the more your words are taken and manipulated and used against you. It's absolutely awful and again, I would ask people to consider who actually gains from taking things down to the level of personal attacks on individuals rather than respectful debate.

What I meant by the comment about my book is that a lot of these comments are personal and hurtful to me so perhaps it's a mistake to engage with them and perhaps it's better for me personally and my own well being to focus on those people who want to debate thoughtfully and respectfully rather than get sucked into a destructive online argument. Again, I think most people on this thread will know what I mean by that.

As I've said, if you want to talk to me I am open to hear from you via email, facebook etc but I am not going to participate in this thread any more now that i know AT is involved. Best to all of you, Milli x

So thanks for the discussion, but now that she has joined the conversation I am afraid I will have to leave.

Any excuse, eh milli? Nothing to do with posters having the measure of you.

It's absolutely awful and again, I would ask people to consider who actually gains from taking things down to the level of personal attacks on individuals rather than respectful debate.

Did you really just type that after calling someone a troll and their blog poisonous?! And after some of the things you've had to say to victims of piss poor midwifery care in the past?! I admire your cheek, I'll give you that much.

I think people on this thread who are able to think for themselves will see that I am not trying to manipulate anyone, or gaslight

Aaaand there we are again. If you think I've been anything less than an angel of perfection in this thread, you must be sheeple. But I didn't come on here to tell you why I'm right and you're wrong, though. Urrgh.

See you next time you want to use MN for some free quotes for an article though, yeah?

I'd like to ask anyone who sees Milli calling my professionalism into question anywhere on social media to let me know. I am utterly furious with her spurious claims about my work and her words are deeply damaging professionally, something I will not allow to continue a moment longer.

Many thanks

Well I can only judge what I see on this forum. And I saw, in Dr Amy's post a neat explanation of why women on this thread have been vocal in their support of Cath's opinion and of why some women are so angry about the original milli Telegraph article.

Milli I'd never heard of you until I read this thread. You clearly have some views on childbirth that differ from my own. However, since you joined the thread I have learnt that you:
i) band about accusations of being personally attacked without actually backing that up with any kind of evidence. Please note that people rubbishing your opinion is not a personal attack. It's just another opinion. You said a lot of these comments are personal and hurtful to me. Which ones exactly?
ii) Have repeatedly failed to explain exactly what it was you were actually trying to say in that Telegraph article, though you have stated several times you appear to have been misunderstood.
iii) Have insisted than an analogy in Cath's article was a personal attack. I read the original text. It was an analogy.
iv) Have accused Dr Amy of being of being one of the most notorious trolls in the world of birth and breastfeeding and stated Her blog is a stream of personal and usually fairly poisonous attacks. Also that in discussions with Dr Amy your words are taken and manipulated and used against you and referred to her taking things down to the level of personal attacks on individuals rather than respectful debate (err... so far as I can see the only one making personal comments on this thread seems to be you Milli love).
v) seem to have equated book sales with expertise My book is selling really well and getting amazing feedback so perhaps it's best just for me to focus on that.

Based on the above, why on earth should I feel comfortable enough to trust a single thing that you write Milli?

In other news (if you'll pardon the pun)...not sure if this has been posted before but the Independent published a response to the Telegraph article too.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/childbirth-painful-labour-telegraph-article-positive-thinking-hypnobirth-birth-myth-a7635511.html

It echoes a lot that has been said on this thread, although it's perhaps a bit less angry and sweary than some of us (me included).

@TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt thanks for linking that article, its very articulate.

@pbmmilli I have never heard of you before this thread. I read your article and found it deeply troubling. My birth experience was horrific; so horrific in fact that my mind disassociated itself from what was happening and my memories of what happened have been altered in order for my brain to cope. I remember taking some lavender essential oil to create a pleasant aroma as I'd heard it can help distract the mind from the pain. How rediculous that seems now. I had no fear going in, I was fully prepared to have my waterbirth and breathing techniques...had I known how bad it would be I wouldn't have done it. If only someone had given me the slightest hint of how bad it could be I might have been more prepared.

Knowledge is power. We dont want to scare people,we want to inform people. What we want is an honest conversation around the real life possibilities of childbirth; in my opinion it's doing a disservice to woman not to tell them the truth. My anger at your article is because it appears to minimise the impact and blame women for the experiences they had. That may not have been your intent but that was the result.

HeyRoly thanks. It's not as if I'm scared of giving birth, I'm specifically terrified of being induced. If all was well and no induction needed, great.
The HCPs just all look slightly confused by my 'issues' though

It's strange, around everything else I've ever seen a doctor about I feel I've been listened to so it seems to be something specifically about pregnancy and labour that means that suddenly I don't count anymore. From my GP getting annoyed with me and telling me to try harder to drink when I went to her about 'morning sickness' (hah, if I was awake I was nauseous, retching or actually vomiting) and the midwife looking surprised and confused at me telling her that water, yes even fizzy water, led to instant vomiting to the labour ward where clearly my questions and concern were just me being silly and inconveniencing the very busy midwives and even the SCBU nurse who seemed to take against me instantly because I hadn't expressed overnight, it was like my mental and emotional welfare just wasn't important.

To be fair, Milli is right about Amy.

I have rarely seen anything more clearly a personal attack than what Milli has just written about Dr Amy Tuteur. She fails to respond in any way to the substance of Dr Amy's comments and instead calls her - not her arguments, Amy herself - a notorious troll.

I will not however report this personal attack. I doubt Dr Amy has either. I think it says way more about the person making the allegations than the person on the receiving end.

Well personally I haven't heard of any of you. My first birth was horrific, my second piss easy my third was quick snd painful and I had major organ failure with my 4th but the actual birth was ok, just my body shutting down.

Pain is what the sufferer says it is! In a nutshell.

Right in what way sisi?
I had never heard of her so have just taken a look at her Skeptical OB blog and it would appear she speaks out against free birthing, anti vaccination, home birth midwives without qualifications and those who make others feel crap about their births or feeding choices.

I co sleep/slept with my kids, breastfed them all to 2+ years, am more Penelope Leach than Gina Ford and with dc1 did single vaccs. Am sure I would not agree with Amy on every issue (the term lactivist makes me shudder) but I agree with her wholeheartedly on one thing: just because breastfeeding and co sleeping worked out for me does not mean that it would work for anyone else or that I should wax lyrical about it (I am, in fact, always in awe of those who had the energy and discipline to haul themselves up at 2am to heat bottles).
www.skepticalob.com/2016/05/feminist-mothering-affirmations.html
^ I thought this opinion piece was interesting.
On MN there are frequently bottle vs breast debates, there are advice threads re c sections, vbacs, hypnobirthing etc, there are discussions re vaccination. In general, those threads have women relate their experience and by and large, if an OP is in distress, we are a pretty supportive bunch.
The affirmations in the link above reflect much advice on here.
Without doubt Amy has an opposing viewpoint to natural birth advocates but if her motive is anger at unnecessary deaths, birth complications and the ideology of natural = best, if that is deemed to be trolling then by that rationale, Milli and her ilk have to be trolling too, surely?