I am Spartacus

[disfasia]

I am posting this here since "Am I being unreasonable?" is only a phrase that a female would ask herself. Women are socialised to concede to men, to institutional pressures, and to ask "Am I being unreasonable?" I am posting here because I know I am not. And this is my protest to MNHQ for censoring women's language, for telling us that the only way to refer to a man who lays claim to be a woman is to call him "she", to call him a "woman." But he is not a woman.

In the past ten days, three different transwomen have been sentenced to prison or arrested for rape or murder of women. Just today a rapist of two children was transferred to a female prison. These are men who commit these crimes and the whitewashing of history and the pressuring of women by MNHQ to say "she", deleting comments when we respectfully disagree and point out scientific evidence, as clear in science as the earth's rotation around the sun. And I am sick of it.

I am sick of the harassment of women who say, "No" to male violence. And make no mistake MNHQ, what you are doing to women on this matter is pure unadulterated violence. You worry more about the feelings of males than women who have, statistically speaking, been victimised by male violence.

If you expect women to come to this website and generate movement for you, you need to understand that in a week where Ian Huntley wants to become a woman, where Jessica Winfield (AKA Martin Ponting) another rapist is housed with women, where Texas is facing a lawsuit from three different prisoners who have been subjected to rape at the hands of another trans prisoner, and the recent sentencing of Kayleigh Woods for the murder of Bethany Hill, her really need to understand that women know the difference between a man and a woman. No, we don't need men telling us to address them as a woman. Nor should MNHQ bei so inclined. This is an open-debate and trans "identity" is up for debate because it is a feeling, not a reality. You cannot oblige women to see the world in a delusory way simply because that individual is delusional or confirmed in his "belief."

MN needs to be a space where women are free to interact honestly, where biology is not written off as unimportant. Rape is very much connected to the biology of males. MNHQ needs to allow for women to set their own boundaries in their own language. We should not be coerced or pressured in any way to goose step with delusional ideologies where the body is irrelevant. This is Mumsnet which exists precisely because the body IS relevant.

This is a revolution.

egosumquisum you'll see I said ideally we would always call them transwomen and wouldn't have to use men or women, however if I had to choose I would call them men. I don't see why we have to choose "men" or "women" however - why can't we always call them transwomen?

IMO the correct description for a transwoman is not "man" or "woman" it's "transwoman". They are biologically different from men (if they've had treatment) and biologically different from women. In the same way that mixed race people are not "black" or "white", the correct description is "mixed race".

"Maybe they feel pretty annoyed at being told they are causing 'pure unadulterated violence towards women' tbh."

Stretching the limits of the imagination, nothing the OP has stated is violent. If anything is violent it is this attempt to socially programme women and to kick them out when they say, "Wait a minute."

If Kate's post is to mean that Mumsnetters must be silent on the oppression of females by males, then we ought to change the site name to Mansnet.

blue this is quoted from the op :

And make no mistake MNHQ, what you are doing to women on this matter is pure unadulterated violence.

The op accuses hq of pure unadulterated violence.

"...we now live in a world where "misgendering" is "literal violence" ... I would say that the bar of what is considered violence has been lowered."

This!

Universitychallenging Yeah, the notion of misgendering being violence has resulted in various forms of real violence... from women being harassed, stalked, threatened, taken out of employment to being banned from MN. I have been reading through the threads over the past months on this subject and remained pretty silent until now. Women have the right to define their own bodies, lives and language. What I see on here are most women being quite respectful in stating their limits and calling out some of the more fantastical facets of the trans story. The problem is that these folks want to enforce how people actually see them and no matter how strongly you feel about your "identity" you simply dont have the right to tell others how to see you. Certainly not the part of the population most at risk from the very males claiming to be them. So I have to agree with the OP that what Mumsnet is doing here is pretty violence towards women. Allow people to have their thoughts, to express them. Calling a male "he" is not violence. Telling a woman she must absolutely is.

Well said OP

vestal if you truly believe mnhq participate in gaslighting why on earth still post here? I wouldn't post on a site where I thought I was being silenced.

Only biding my time till enough Spartacuses have joined so mumsnet will be empty when we all leave at the same time.

It won't be long. Facts are facts, and I doubt that many women will be keen on classing convicted male rapists as women.

Hi there

Well, they participate in gaslighting by banning us from using male pronouns for male people.

Several posters seem to have the wrong end of the stick. In fact - as we've said upthread and elsewhere - it's not the case that we delete any particular use of pronouns. We do, though, delete posts which seem to us to be intended to goad, inflame or provoke, which is against our Talk Guidelines.

While we're keen that Mumsnet should be a place where this debate can be had - and, as mentioned previously, put a lot of thought and resource into making that possible - none of the team involved are really in this to be accused of gaslighting or violence. That's not really on, to be honest, so we'll be deleting and/or suspending if that continues.

Oh Kate, please do insult more Mumsnetters by telling us how we have it wrong followed by threats. Your attitude here is imperious. This thread seems to have been started because of your taking down perfectly reasonable comments in the other. You have also banned the OPer. So if anyone needs to be taken down a peg, it is not us asking for some sort of discussion, but you who demonstrates an arrogance in dealing with our serious concerns, likening us to dogs (the stick reference??). Your post here is clearly set up in an air to inflame and provoke and show no desire to concede that you might have made a mistake.

What I observe here from you is a haughtiness to weigh on one side of the debate by deleting messages from the side you disagree with. Likewise to ban those with whom you disagree. I have seen some of the comments you have deleted. None were 'intended to goad, inflame or provoke.' If that is your interpretation, I would say that you, not the comments, are the problem.

I think we need a different moderator here. You seem to want to punish women, Kate. And I don't do carceral or punitive politics. I think your place should not be tone police here and clearly you cannot keep your personal feelings from your job as moderator. Insulting the OP is also not on. I have seen the email you sent her. Totally disgusting.

I am Brian. And my wife's Brian too.

Ho ho ho

Don't tell him Pike.

Erm, that's the kind of thing that's also not really on! Thanks for all your reports - we've suspended bluechrysanthemum's ability to post now.

Kate - I'm one of the (I think many) people who think MNHQ are generally doing a pretty good job of allowing space for discussion and - being human, and sometimes having to respond quickly to a fast-moving thread - occasionally making a bad call. I don't envy any of you the task, and I hope people generally agree personal abuse of HQ staff is no more tolerable than of any other poster.

I'm Spartacus

i'm one of the (I think many) people who think MNHQ are generally doing a pretty good job of allowing space for discussion and - being human, and sometimes having to respond quickly to a fast-moving thread - occasionally making a bad call. I don't envy any of you the task, and I hope people generally agree personal abuse of HQ staff is no more tolerable than of any other poster.

I agree

Still spartacus

Oh, I've declared as a 'spartacus' - if I think MNHQ have made a bad call I'll say so. But hopefully politely and rationally.

IIRC the phenomenon started when there was a certain amount of pressure from TRA quarters, and it seemed somewhat necessary for a lot of posters to publicly declare that they didn't want MN to become like a lot of sites, uncritically toeing the line on current dogma. A place where women could discuss issues relevant to women, and parents (especially those of trans kids, as it happens) could voice their concerns.

MNHQ needs to understand what provokes people here is this sort of moderation where reasonable debate banned and women are slowly leaving MNHQ.

Many for arrive it is a huge site.

Their site, their rules.

The OP wasn't 'reasonable debate' it was a deliberate attack. MNHQ have every right to respond.

That was not personal abuse

It was direct personal abuse! As is your post.

MNHQ seem to be doing a good job and I can't really think of a mainstream forum where such debate happens. The debate is skewed slightly by the absence of many trans voices but MN has done a pretty good job moderating and I should imagine it takes a lot of their time and resources.