Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

I am Spartacus

310 replies

disfasia · 21/03/2017 22:15

I am posting this here since "Am I being unreasonable?" is only a phrase that a female would ask herself. Women are socialised to concede to men, to institutional pressures, and to ask "Am I being unreasonable?" I am posting here because I know I am not. And this is my protest to MNHQ for censoring women's language, for telling us that the only way to refer to a man who lays claim to be a woman is to call him "she", to call him a "woman." But he is not a woman.

In the past ten days, three different transwomen have been sentenced to prison or arrested for rape or murder of women. Just today a rapist of two children was transferred to a female prison. These are men who commit these crimes and the whitewashing of history and the pressuring of women by MNHQ to say "she", deleting comments when we respectfully disagree and point out scientific evidence, as clear in science as the earth's rotation around the sun. And I am sick of it.

I am sick of the harassment of women who say, "No" to male violence. And make no mistake MNHQ, what you are doing to women on this matter is pure unadulterated violence. You worry more about the feelings of males than women who have, statistically speaking, been victimised by male violence.

If you expect women to come to this website and generate movement for you, you need to understand that in a week where Ian Huntley wants to become a woman, where Jessica Winfield (AKA Martin Ponting) another rapist is housed with women, where Texas is facing a lawsuit from three different prisoners who have been subjected to rape at the hands of another trans prisoner, and the recent sentencing of Kayleigh Woods for the murder of Bethany Hill, her really need to understand that women know the difference between a man and a woman. No, we don't need men telling us to address them as a woman. Nor should MNHQ bei so inclined. This is an open-debate and trans "identity" is up for debate because it is a feeling, not a reality. You cannot oblige women to see the world in a delusory way simply because that individual is delusional or confirmed in his "belief."

MN needs to be a space where women are free to interact honestly, where biology is not written off as unimportant. Rape is very much connected to the biology of males. MNHQ needs to allow for women to set their own boundaries in their own language. We should not be coerced or pressured in any way to goose step with delusional ideologies where the body is irrelevant. This is Mumsnet which exists precisely because the body IS relevant.

This is a revolution.

OP posts:
Deschain · 22/03/2017 10:09

I'm with you OP.

I'm Spartacus. This shit is getting scary.

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 10:09

I. Don't. Care.

It's all just the cause de jour on here. If you don't like it, and you clearly don't, then get out and lobby for change. Organise and do something about it. But honestly, anyone who thinks posting the sort of navel gazing hyperbole the op has posted is going to make any sort of a difference to any upcoming legislation quite frankly needs to waken up.

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 10:11

This is a chat shite on the Internet. HQ have stated their position and they aren't looking like they are going to change it. They aren't going to be the voice lobbying for change. So, if you want to be that voice, go somewhere that you aren't getting deleted and/or banned and go and put your point out there. Find your group. Grow your movement.

But this site isn't it. HQ have made that pretty clear.

VestalVirgin · 22/03/2017 10:11

No I didn't, and in case you didn't read my posts I explained that I was aiming my comment at the transphobes, not the victims of abuse.

You also accuse victims of abuse of transphobia. Don't think we do not know that.
The transwacktivists, with whom you side, have thrown women out of shelters because those women were victims of abuse and therefore, quite reasonably did not want to share a room with a male.

Do not think we do not know. Do not think you can pretend to care about victims of abuse.

disfasia · 22/03/2017 10:13

Answers:

I am offended to be asked to verify someone's psychological perception of themselves and to compelled to use of a particular kind of ideological language. So yours is a straw man--the real question here is why trans people are deliberately offending and controlling others. You can call yourself a ladybird or the most beautiful person in the world. You are free to do that. I am free to not see this, to not think this, and to not echo your thoughts from my mouth.

Removing perfectly reasonable commentary while forcing women to engage in the political rhetoric of "properly gendering" is a form a violence. We all have the ability to perceive reality. This is not something that can be mandated into law--how I see you or you me is perception. By punishing women for not speaking in certain terms, through certain key phrases, MNHQ is engaging in political ideological training. This is violence for women who have historically been told how to speak of their bodies, their realities, their lives.

I think this is a statement made in bad faith. What does erase women's reality is creating a lobby that is very well funded to render the following "trasphobic":

-women discussing their bodies--breastfeeding, menstruation, vaginas, sex, same-sex attraction, etc.
-lesbians who do not wish to sleep with males
-women who say that biology inflects their socialised reality entirely differently from males (no matter how these males identify)
-women who speak their thoughts about their bodies and lives and are hounded to death online, their employment, their family
-women who say that transwomen are not women because their experiences are different

There is a concerted lobby against females who dare speak out about the obvious differences that exist between their bodies and male bodies, between their lived experiences and those of males (again, no matter how they identify).

I have many trans friends and our experiences are vastly different. Transwomen despite the current propaganda are not at risk of violence more than women. There is a piece recently that gives stats on this. The transwomen I know ALL make double my salary if not far more. The transwomen I know are not taking care of small children or parents. These "women" are not carers and do not suffer the socialisation of having to sacrifice any part of their lives or personhood to nurture others. And that is fine--I am not suggesting that they should. I am suggesting that they are quite clearly males.

OP posts:
Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 10:15

This is not violence from mnhq and to keep saying it is is offensive to the mods on here who do a damn hard job and tread a pretty fair line. I don't always agree with them, but they get it pretty right most of the time and to say they are engaging in violence is just rubbish.

BathshebaDarkstone · 22/03/2017 10:15

Are all transgender men rapists? I try to avoid threads like this because they make me angry. My own DS1 is transgender, and quite honestly has too much else going on in his life (very, very seriously ill) to worry about violence towards anybody.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 22/03/2017 10:15

The issue for me isn't one of semantics, it's one of safety.

The TA argue that they are women, therefore should be in women's spaces like toilets. Fair enough, I don't have a problem with someone peeing next to me and feeling part of some "girlie gang" that they perceive if that makes them happy.

But, then, I am not a woman who feels vulnerable. I have been lucky (so far).

One in three women have been sexually assaulted.

One in three!

It's NORMAL for us to have memories of a sexual encounter which made us uncomfortable. Well, it's not normal, but, it's so common it's regarded as such.

Three women a week are murdered in the UK by men.

So, not threat of violence because someone got a pro-noun wrong - but, actual, known, violence. It's not even news unless the woman was very young, very pretty, or very famous.

Women's shelters in the north east were shut because they refused to accept trans-women.

Women in jail, the majority of whom are vulnerable people, are being put in cells with people with penises.

Sexual and violent assault crimes committed by women are increasing - only, they're actually crimes committed by trans-women with penises being recorded as women.

Fuck's sake.

We need to be screaming about the actual facts - that male violence is a problem and warrants protecting women as people and as a term.

CoteDAzur · 22/03/2017 10:17

"The root of the word man shows that originally it could signify a person of unspecified gender according to Wikipedia."

Clutching at straws, aren't you? Smile

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 10:18

"Gender identity refers to the social constructs in any given society around gender and commonly also reference sexuality. There are many more genders and sexualities than just the binary sex definition."

So sex stereotypes?
So your definition of man is - "a person (whether male or female) who performs societies expected stereotypical behaviour, long associated with being male"?

isupposeitsverynice · 22/03/2017 10:18

I'm still Spartacus too.

Sex exists for reproduction. That's all. We have women and men because you need female and male animals to reproduce. It's really very simple. You cannot change your role in the reproductive act, so you cannot change your sex.

The fact that some people's reproductive systems do not work is neither here nor there in this, nor is sexual orientation. Those are just things that happen. They don't change the fact that sex is ultimately for reproduction.

Everything else is just human stuff, society, whatever. What you wear and how you feel and what you do and how you are treated might be culturally mandated according to your sex, but unless it is actually reproducing, it's really got fuck all to do with sex.

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 10:18

Do you not think that is a little regressive?

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 10:19

No Cote. I actually found it nteresting how the word had evolved and posted it for that reason.

Smile
stealtheatingtunnocks · 22/03/2017 10:19

Bathsheba, I'm sorry your DS is unwell.

To be clear - I am not saying that transgender men are rapists, or that transgender women are rapists.

I'm saying that many women have been raped or fear being in enclosed spaces with knickers round their ankles. They deserve to pee in peace too.

Women live with fear. Men don't get that, they can't, because they are bigger and stronger.

I hope your DS feels better soon.

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 10:21

A subsection of society keep making the news because they are having babies
Another subsection of society keep making the news because they have committed a violent crime.

Do these people fit your definitions?

sticklebrix · 22/03/2017 10:23

"So really, I don't care. Live and let live. Accepting her as she is is taking nothing away from me."

Well quite. Most of us know lovely transpeople and have no interest in doing anything other than accepting people as they are. Accepting your friend as she is will take nothing away from you on a personal level.

But changes in the law to accommodate the conflation of gender and sex will, and already are, taking away your legal protections (assuming that you're female).

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 10:26

So only males who identify as men and have the chromosomes for male commit violent crimes?

Not buying that. So not buying that. You can't compare the two things. One requires a certain biology and the other is an action. A choice.

scottishdiem · 22/03/2017 10:29

I get the academic theory that typed words in generic forums about women, trans and men can be articulated as violence when using XYZ critical theory to examine social media interactions on some such. I dont get it at a relatively open forum like Mumsnet to be honest.

When you have had the shit kicked out of you by your partner and are in hospital, you have an acute feeling of what violence is. You may think your lack of free speech is the same as this but you are so fucking wrong its unbelievable. So, on that basis alone, I am never going to be whatever Spartacus you are disfasia.

Also, a quick search of google history reveals that "Am I being unreasonable" was asked by at least three men prior to the year 2000. So you are talking mince on that as well.

BathshebaDarkstone · 22/03/2017 10:30

If my DS feels more comfortable being referred to as she (he hasn't said as much, he feels more comfortable identifying as female in social situations), I think he should be referred to as such. In those everyday situations it's just common courtesy. The cases we're referring to, I don't even know how we'd begin to deal with.

FTR, thanks for your kind words, one of DS1's illnesses will kill him, the other 2 could. I just feel that life dealt him 4 shitty cards. As if having 3 serious illnesses wasn't enough, let's make him think he was born in the wrong body too.

Aaaaaaanyway, let's get back to the point.

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 10:36

Shit Bathsheba, I'm sorry about your DS :( Flowers

BathshebaDarkstone · 22/03/2017 10:42

We've lived with 2 of the illnesses for a very long time, the latest one at least is curable. I don't want to derail any more.

My point was that transgender people are as multidimensional as everyone else. He doesn't have relationships as it would be too much for someone to take on.

ghome1971 · 22/03/2017 10:44

I am Spartacus

DJBaggySmalls · 22/03/2017 10:47

The Equality Committee rubbished evidence given by Rape Crisis and Womens Aid in favour of an opinion given by Mr Morton from the Scottish Transgender Alliance.

P27, 28, 29
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

If the committee get their way, women will no longer have the right to single sex facilities. Not anywhere. Not in hospital, not in a DV shelter, not in Rape Crisis counselling.

They do not support a third unisex space because Trans activists dont. 50% of the population have to ignore their feelings of fear and anxiety for the hurt feelings of the 0.3%.

This is shameful.

KateMumsnet · 22/03/2017 10:59

Hi there

We've been having a look back at the thread in question and we've now reinstated one of the deleted posts. Generally, we don't delete posts which align with current scientific orthodoxy unless we think the intention is to goad, which would break our Talk guidelines. So tone and context is everything, and we generally advise folk to err on the side of caution if in doubt.

While we're happy to reinstate this post, we really don't think it's fair to say that MNHQ doesn't allow this issue to be discussed. There are any number of threads on the topic at any given time, and as we've said elsewhere, a huge amount of effort and resource goes into moderating these threads even-handedly - resource which, one might argue, could be more fairly distributed across the boards. Our fundamental position, outlined above, isn't going to change, I'm afraid - if you're not able to live with this, it may be time to consider whether Mumsnet is the site for you.

Thanks

MNHQ

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 11:03

You seem to be left to deal with these specific threads a lot Kate, I don't envy you here!! Is it your sole job description? Grin

Swipe left for the next trending thread