wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

As I say in my other posts, it's not about her being trans. A person who has been abused may have limits to what they can deal with; that isn't the OP's cousin's fault, it isn't the fault of any man she may come across. It is - very unfortunately - her burden. I hope she can come to terms with it eventually. I cannot support any individual man being forced to exclude himself from an event because of it.

You don't think that as a group of female friends there should be a sense of making an abused female's feelings a priority?

My friends and I call it the elephant circle. It's where women look out for and after each other.

No no no no no. I fundamentally disagree that trauma is only the burden of specific individuals.

Being sensitive to other people's feelings is something we should expect of all people. Whoever they are. We teach empathy to our five year olds, it is not an option to just discard it because you think you are more important than other people.

A social situation like this should be handled with sensitively, empathy, consideration... not by shutting down other people's feelings.

SmileEachDay:

I don't. I think it is unreasonable to prioritise her feelings about people who, for reasons those people can't control, remind her of something awful that happened to her, over the feelings of someone who has never harmed her. It isn't her fault she feels like that, but she needs to seek professional help, not expect all men/transwomen to exclude themselves for her. And I am sure she is seeking help. I hope so.

Batteriesallgone:

I empathise with her. I just don't think she has the right to vet who is present at every event she attends. Sorry, I just don't. Nothing against her, poor girl.

It is gender essentialist to suggest that women born with women's bodies (whether straight or on the rainbow of queer somewhere) are more subtle in their sexuality. That irks me because it's part of the basis for 'true' femininity as defined by the patriarchy - don't be a slut, be subtle, be feminine. Bollocks to that.

CoolJazz: I have clearly told you I would feel the same if she was a man.

I will respectfully disagree with you, Trifle.

Men are prioritised in so many arenas. I don't think the field of abused women should be one of them.

wombofonesown are you being ironic? You're telling me how research works and how a theory develops yet you don't understand what lacking empirical evidence means? Really? Ok, as I'm doing research, I'll bite. It means that Blanchard may have found this data but no one else has who has replicated his experiments/ research. Probably due to the fact that the original research ( Blanchard's) is riddled with methodological problems as well as validity and reliability issues. It's quite straightforward. And no, that is not how a theory works- they are built on empirical evidence.

Wow. I'll make sure never to get in a hot tub with a man I don't know (or even one that I do) in case he gets a raging hard on. Because, you know, men just can't control themselves, ever.

On a different note, I don't know how a man 'feels' and if it's any different to how a woman 'feels' but I do know that I identify as a woman and am happy in my own body, to the extent that it is female and not 'missing' a penis. I can't imagine how difficult it is to feel that one is either a man or woman and does not have the biological body to match.

To that end, I really think we need to stop making assumptions and judgements about transgender people. Yes, they are biologically a different sex to the one they identify as, but why do we have so much of this? And why do we say that transgender people only identify with gender as a social construct? How do we know they don't 'feel' the same as a biological man or woman?

If the OP accepts that her cousin identifies as a woman, then why not invite her to a women only event? Why does it matter her cousin still has a penis?

The relative who was abused - will she feel threatened by someone having a penis even when there will be lots of other people around?

Difficult one OP - it's hard to be torn and not knowing what's the best thing to do or how to handle it without hurting someone or not getting the hen do you wanted. Depends on several different things. You know those involved and if any of them will feel off about having your cousin there though from what you've said it sounds like you want a girls only do where you can all let your hair down and have a giggle away from the men. You also know your cousin and if they will feel uncomfortable - they might not want to come anyway and understand that their presence might make things awkward.

Sounds best if your cousin doesn't come - if they are a good person with insight, they'll understand.

SmileEachDay:

And respectfully, it isn't about gender or sex. If the OP's friend had been abused by, for example, a person of a particular race, I wouldn't think it was okay for a guest of that race to be excluded to save her feelings. I would warn her that they would be attending and I would expect her to make her own decision about whether her MH was up to being there, or not.

Absentmindedwoman, statistically, women's socialization leads them to far less sexually predatory behavior. You can call that "more subtle" if you like. It's not "essentialism" to say that men's reproductive role (and the fact that they bear far less burden of reproduction) plus cultural norms about sexuality have led to men being far more likely to be predatory or creepy. Men act entitled because they have been socialized to act entitled. It's not part of their "male essence." It's part of their culture. Acting like women and men are equally likely to predate upon women is nonsensical.

Got a penis. Not a woman

Exactly. A Penis and Bollocks is MALE.

It makes me laugh when I hear people spouting crap about 'female penises'

Divers, if there's so much research contradicting it with empirical studies, it should be absolutely trivial for you to find me a study indicating that less than 50% of women-attracted MTFs have autogynephilia. Can you find me such a study? Thanks in advance!

I do think it's nice of you to consider your guests and your cousin's feelings. Speaking as someone who is trans, I can speak of the experience of acceptance and non acceptance by the female members of an extended family. Little things make you realise that you aren't accepted - and there is little point in making a fuss.

Speaking from your cousin's perspective, it might well be likely that the last thing they want is to go on a hen do and to be put in a situation like that where some people feel uncomfortable - and they feel uncomfortable.

It might not be that case - but a hot tub and wearing a costume with people you don't really know would make some people really uncomfortable - especially if they haven't undergone surgery. And maybe so afterwards as well.

It is really nice that you are thinking of everyone's feelings though. Maybe the best thing is to talk to them?

WombOfOnesOwn You're really embarrassing yourself with your lack of reading comprehension and abysmal critical analysis of studies. Just top.

I really want to reply but I'm now dealing with a diabetic hypo because I've put off making dinner and faffed on Mumsnet all evening so it will have to be later, can't do joined up thinking right now. I need all of the carbs.

womb check the DSM-5 and WPATH
HTH