wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

Haggis, would you care to actually shine a light on what you intended, rather than just saying something sarcastic "A+ research there" and then mocking the lack of understanding? These are the sorts of tactics I find people often resort to when they know they are in the wrong and are getting defensive over being presented with evidence. I'd sure love for you to show me some evidence that contradicts the pro-transgender source I linked to.

VestalVirgin:

I am wearied by language like 'silencing tactic' as well. You crack right on, don't let me silence you.

So Trifle, you can't come up with a single word that represents the category "men + transwomen + genderqueer people with penises + non-binary people with penises & so on"? You criticized my use of terminology. I explained it. if you'd like to offer a more inclusive term than "bepenised people," please do. Saying "men and transwomen" excludes non-binary and genderqueer people, which I'm told is violent and upsetting.

Survivors of sexual abuse pay the price for it all the time, being forced to avoid all sorts of occasions. However this invitee is more important to OP than her cousin. So OP either doesn't invite cousin or finds a way to talk to her about it. Simply saying 'well the abuse survivor could just not come' is ignoring he most important persons wishes - the hen's.

Personally I applaud the OP for being sensitive to her friends trauma.

I'd be surprised at a trans person who wasn't sensitive to trauma tbh. I imagine the experience of being trans must be very difficult. I imagine that would increase your empathy for others who are experiencing difficult situations. Maybe that's me being optimistic though!

It must be tough to be so tired as soon as people come up with solid points against your arguments, Trifle. Have you considered seeing a doctor for your fatigue?

WombOfOnesOwn:

No, I suppose not.

WombOfOnesOwn:

I am strongly considering it, reading this thread and your posts, in particular. It's just exhausting.

thanks batteries the experience my friend has been through so shocking and awful and i never want her to have to think about it again (although i know she does) and want to do all i can to make her feel happy and safe- just without causing family upset or upset to my cousin either.

Someone very close to me is trans, so from that position of being pretty well versed in these matters but being cisgender myself (i.e. my gender matches the sex I was born as) I will raise a few points

• she is absolutely not going to want to put herself in a position where her genitalia are in any way evident. It's highly unlikely she much likes what is between her legs, so she's hardly going to turn up in a bikini with a bulge on show. I'd place money on her either "forgetting" her swimming gear and not being able to go in the hot tub, or she'll come up with a more inventive but suitably covering solution e.g. www.thelingerieaddict.com/2015/03/trans-swimwear-part-one-trans-women.html Last time I went swimming with a trans person (FTM, so other way to your relative), he wore a pair of swim shorts and a rashguard (he looked rather like a surfer). No one gave him a second glance.

• your cousin will likely be quite upset if she is excluded because she is trans - it will be reminder that she is not always seen by others how she sees herself. She'll also be missing out on an important social occasion, which is no fun regardless of the reasons.

• I'm unsure as to why young girls would feel uncomfortable in her presence - we all use mixed sex swimming pools without any incident. Have you even asked if they will feel uncomfortable around her, or is this an assumption? If they already know her then it's hardly going to be a shock to them.

• with regards to the abused girl - trickier. Have you spoken to her to see what she says? Does she know your cousin? How is she in general in mixed sex environments? For all we know, she gets on perfectly well with your cousin and would be horrified at the idea that your cousin might be excluded on her account.

• can she have a room to herself? She may prefer this for the sake of privacy. If not, I'm sure she will get changed in private i.e. a locked bathroom. She does not want anyone else to see the less female parts of her body.

• there's no suggestion that she has ever behaved inappropriately towards another woman before, so any suggestion that she is somehow going to assault another guest at any opportunity is rather far-fetched.

Ultimately, the fact she has a penis is pretty unlikely to change anything on the day, unless you make it so, given that

• you're not going to see it
• she's not going to do anything with it
• if she's on hormone treatment, chances are it doesn't function as it once did
• nothing would actually be functionally different at your party if she had had lower surgery

I can tell that you mean well, and want to do the right thing by all concerned - actually, you sound like you do have good intentions. Assuming that the abused girl isn't utterly terrified of anyone born male, if I were you, I'd invite her as you would any other female guest. Let her know well in advance that there will be a hot tub so she can sort out her own swimwear / "forget" to bring it. Give her her own room. If she chooses to decline the invitation, that's up to her, but I'm sure she would be very upset if she was excluded.

Haggis, would you care to actually shine a light on what you intended, rather than just saying something sarcastic "A+ research there" and then mocking the lack of understanding?

It's only you who failed to understand, so the problem isn't on my end.

A research study that concludes a figure of somewhere between the massively different percentages of 45 and 80 is obviously not a stringent study. Is that clear enough for you or do I need to use some transphobic language for you to relate to?

45% is the number they concluded overall. 80%+ is the number concluded for MTFs attracted exclusively to women. Since I don't know whether the MTF in question is exclusively attracted to women, regardless of their current partnership, I can't speak to whether it's closer to one number or the other.

You are a good friend op. And a good cousin, you obviously don't want to hurt your cousins feelings. You want to make them both happy, you can't so will have to work around it.

As I said, anyone here is welcome to show research indicating that a low percentage of MTFs have personality disorders or autogynephilic fetish/paraphilia. All you have to do is get on Google Scholar and find the studies. If you're so confident that it's a low-risk scenario, can you back your confidence up with evidence?

Trifle

So victims of horrific, scarring abuse need to get over it? Is that what you are saying? That is total victim blaming. Safe spaces are supposed to be physically and mentally safe. To all intents and purposes you are saying women who are abuse survivors have to endure mental torture to allow someone else space to explore their choices?

Yet again, women are asked to minimise their pain and suffering to accommodate others. This is bullshit.

The best outcome here is to have a more intimate hen with close friends, including hot tub, and an afternoon tea with family as well. It might be the only way to spare either of them pain.

Blanchard has been discredited.

"Blanchard first proposed the theory of autogynephilia in the late 1980's - it asserts that there are two fundamentally different types of trans women, and that only one of these groups (the so-called "autogynephiles") not only experience sexual arousal or fantasies involving the “thought or image of oneself as a woman" (what, for clarity's sake, I will call female/feminine embodiment fantasies or FEFs), but that FEFs are the cause of any gender dysphoria & desire to transition that those individuals experience.

But the problem is that in every single one of Blanchard's research studies on the matter, he found a significant number of subjects who defied his two-subtype model and his assumption of causality (i.e., that FEFs are the supposed cause of transsexuality in those who experience them). Rather than question his model, Blanchard dismissed these many exceptions by accusing those research subjects of "misreporting" their experiences; other proponents of autogynephilia theory have subsequently followed suit."

from Julia Serano:

juliaserano.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/the-real-autogynephilia-deniers.html

Before Blanchard, nobody was researching any of this stuff. Over the last ten years, sexology has moved on - a lot.

This is another critique of Blanchard's research, by Charles Moser:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241

morningrunner

I may well have Lady Brain, it may be bollocks,Let's face it no one knows either way and I agree with you when you say that the concept that has been used as a smokescreen for rank misogyny for ever

Well, ther is quite a bit of evidence that lady brain doesn't exist. So I don't think you can say that nobody knows either way.

That does not mean that gender identity is a not a real thing

If lady brain isn't real then where does gender identity come from, other than lived experience of the world?
I don't assert that gender identity doesn't feel like a real. Thing to those that experience it. Just as religious faith feels like a real thing to those who experience it too. That doesn't mean I have to accept that it's a real thing, does it?

rightsaidfrederickII:

Thank you - a sensible post.

OP - listen to this one, not the people who are clearly ideologically motivated. These people are your family and friends, not subjects on someone's anti-trans blog.

i don't think I'm going to be able to do this wiuthout hurting someone so will think of something else to do, thanks everyone, i really don't want this to turn into some sort of attack on trans people as i don't understand how hard it is but have seen how my cousin has been affected, hence me being so cautious about the situation. thanks

Rightsaidfred it doesn't matter if ops cousin isn't sexual predater.

What matters is the fact that a obviously male body will distress an abuse victim.

NannyOggsKnickers:

No, they don't 'need' to get over it. They don't need to do anything. But they can't blame uninvolved individuals for the terrible things that happened to them and expect those people to exclude themselves from events at which they would otherwise be very welcome because - wait for it - they never raped or abused anyone. If you are genuinely so traumatised that you can't be in mixed company, that is a terrible thing, but you can't put that on other people.

AbsentMindedWoman, did you actually read those links? The main critique in the second is that Blanchard said 100% of woman-attracted MTFs were autogynephiles. Instead, the author of the critique says:

"It appears that substantial minorities of homosexual MTFs are autogynephilic and non-homosexual MTFs are not."

Substantial minorities of woman-attracted MTFs are not autogynephilic. Which jibes with the evidence above. I never said 100% were. That's the main critique leveled against Blanchard today -- that some homosexual (male-attracted) MTFs are autogynephilic, and not all heterosexual (female-attracted) ones are.

user you sound lovely, I'm glad you didn't get completely scared off the thread!

It is very difficult when you have people you care about in your life who will clash in some way or be fundamentally incompatible. I hope you find a middle ground that works and really hope you manage to enjoy your hen! Just remember it's your hen do and all attendees should have your happiness front and centre, which should include being willing to make compromises if asked.

Some of the comments on this thread are bizarre.

To the person who said they would want to get into a hot tub with a penis. You will not be getting into a hot tub with a penis- it is a person. People are more than their genitals.

Not that there is going to be a hot tub.

I have been on a spa day with a trans woman. No one felt uncomfortable and as it was a hen do not everyone had met before. I have also been on weekends where I have shared a house with a mixed group of friends. I can't understand why that is a big deal.

I think the OP has planned a hen do that is inclusive and takes into account everyone's needs. If there will be room sharing why don't you share with your cousin?

If everyone will be clothed there is no reason to make a big deal about what is underneath them. There is no reason for the girl who has been abuse to see that the op's cousin still has a penis. She may not feel uncomfortable with a trans person. People are projecting their own prejudices on to her.

Rightsaidfred it doesn't matter if ops cousin isn't sexual predater.

What matters is the fact that a obviously male body will distress an abuse victim.

I do wish you'd read my full post.

She's not going to show any parts of her body that are less than female. She would be deeply uncomfortable in doing so.

While I have every sympathy for the abused girl, unless I've missed a post from the OP (if so, please do link) it's unclear what she actually thinks about the situation - is she actually uncomfortable around the cousin, or are people making assumptions on her behalf?