wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

Sorry Absent, thought it was the same one.

Yeah, it's so terrible to generalize and think this person could be toxic.

It's not like over 80% of MTFs have diagnosable personality disorders, with 57% of them being diagnosable narcissists!

Oh wait. It's exactly like that. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Trifle if ok really wants her friend there she will have to exclude her cousin. It's sad but she will have to choose one.

Being female is objectively riskier and less privileged than being female male

Christ Trifle! The one social occasion she might expect would not require her to think about excluding herself from would be a hen do!

Oswin:

I think it is the tone of the posts that is attracting the more sarcastic responses. I understand that some abused women will feel uncomfortable around men. There is no need for the 'bepenised' type language though. There is nothing objectively disgusting about men or penises.

annandale:

Why?

It would be a No from me. Gender is a social construct and I do not believe in lady brain. An adult, male bodied person with 40 odd years of male socialisation in a heterosexual relationship wouldn't be invited to my hen do

Oops. Sorry. I misread that study. Did I say 57% of MTFs are diagnosable narcissists? No, it's 57% of all trans people in the study. It's 64% in the MTF population only.

But hey, who cares, right? It's just some traumatized woman. May as well roll the dice and see what fun trauma comes of the evening!

Oswin:

I wouldn't exclude someone based on the fact that someone else would be uncomfortable. I would give the person with the difficulty the choice. But that's me.

Trifle, I am using "bepenised people" because it's the only way to refer to them. "Man" now includes trans men, who don't have them. "Woman" now includes some people who do have them. "Male" and "female" are undergoing the same political language issues. Women have been told to refer to themselves as "bleeders," "people with vaginas," "people with uteruses," and so on. What is wrong with "bepenised"?

No, being a trans woman is nothing to be ashamed of. However there are several people on this thread referring to them as men which is offensive.

Well, we would not have to point out that they are, in fact, male, if they didn't try to insert themselves into things that are for women, or other people demanded that they be included in women's spaces. (Perhaps OP's cousin doesn't want to get in the hot tub at all, so it'd be unfair to accuse them of that, but people on this thread sure think males should be included even if that means some women cannot participate as a result.)

I use female pronouns for transwomen who have shown that they are loyal to women and respectful and do not try to invade female spaces.
But to be a honorary woman, you have to have honour, in the first place.

So if 45-80% of MTFs are fetishists

They came up with a figure of 45-80%? Sounds like stringent, A+ research there.

WombOfOnesOwn:

Transwoman is fine, if you really need to distinguish a TW from a woman.

It sounds very tough for you op. Personally if I were a guest I would not be happy with it. I think it would change the whole dynamic and I know I would feel uncomfortable having a male bodied, and male socialised person as part of a female only group in that kind of situation. I assume I will get called a bigot for that but that's how I feel. If it's very important to you that your cousin is there then perhaps a different activity would be better.

Of course you need to distinguish.

They are different.

ThreeLeggedHaggis, do you have any links showing a lower incidence of autogynephilic fetishism in the trans population?

Remember, that number came from an organization FOR autogynephiles, a pro-autogynephilia organization that promotes "crossdreaming." It didn't come from anti-trans feminists. This is what transwomen are saying.

Trifleorbust:

How do I designate the category "men and transwomen and non-binary people with penises and genderqueer people with penises and..." for purposes of discussing issues relating to sexual politics?

Transwoman is fine, if you really need to distinguish a TW from a woman.

But sometimes, we want to talk about all males. And some have taken offense at "biological males".

I think "the bepenised" is a good word that does not assign gender or even sex to the people we are talking of. It just states a fact. If you now feel offended even by that, that is clearly a silencing tactic.

WombOfOnesOwn You didn't understand my post, which isn't surprising.

I think this has escalated massively. She is still a male in a physical sense, has only recently begun hormone therapy but still is 'physically male'. i don't know if thats an incorrect way to put it. My cousin as far as i know isn't into fetish stuff??! but even if she was she isn't going to do anything on a hen do that no-one else would? this has all got way out of hand, my friend who has been abused is still very much affected by it and i need to be considerate to her, as i see just how much this affects her in every day life i think i might just do something separate and a dinner out with family or something.

Oh your between a rock and a hard place. Personally i dont know how comfortable id be with a pre op trans woman on a hen night if you are all staying in the same house. Purely because on the hen nights i have been on, usually we are sharing rooms and people (all woman) are walking in and out and doors are usually open. Inevitably especially when getting ready to go out and pre night drinking, we are walking about in underwear etc. I dont think id be comfortable doing that with a pre op transgender. Post op, I dont know how id feel. However if it was just everyone meeting up in a pub and going out, or doing an activity like cocktail making etc. I wouldnt mind at all.

justnowords thats exactly how i would feel, i think i will just do something else with family thank you

WombOfOnesOwn:

I really can't be arsed with this whataboutery. Your tone is problematic for me. It's clear why and I don't want to debate it any further. You sound horrible. Goodnight.

They came up with a figure of 45-80%? Sounds like stringent, A+ research there.

How do you propose one estimates the number of males who might, for whatever reason, decide to identify their way into the women's toilets or changing rooms?

If we include men who identify as women for the time it takes to change their baby's diapers on the changing table that's inconveniently located in the women's toilets, then that obviously drastically reduces the percentage of fetishists in the MTT population.