wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

No, being a trans woman is nothing to be ashamed of. However there are several people on this thread referring to them as men which is offensive.

And no I don't think everyone with a penis is an abuser either but for someone who has been sexually abused by a man there are a lot of reasons why it might not be a good idea to have someone with one in a hot tub with them.

Well you are in a tricky position OP and indeed a deeply political one.

Obviously you do what you want.

And the women you want to invite have the right to do what they want too. So if you invite a MTT person to a traditionally all female event, I think they have a right to know and the right to make their own decision as to whether they come or not.

because he has a penis and as far as the op knows hasn't done anything to legally transition as such is a male

The op refers to her family member who is transitioning as 'she'.

All of the 'it's not his/her fault' posts about women being scared of men/MTT seem to be missing the very obvious point that ABUSE IS NOT THE VICTIMS FAULT either. So the point is totally moot. There is no 'fault'. Just discomfort, and the choice of how you deal with it. And saying 'it's not my fault so I don't care' is pretty bloody selfish and not an attitude I'd want on my hen do, personally.

I'm definitely female. And identify as woman.

There are some really offensive posts in this thread. Repeated misgendering.

And the fetishist post is just horrible. There's no evidence that this woman has any kind of fetish. Or will behave in any way inappropriately.

This thread is like peak mumsnet.

Wedding

Invitation etiquette

Guests

Transgender

Op why don't you suggest a second hen do with family? A meal out and a party or something? The. You can celebrate with you cousin

Wombs post makes perfect sense. Women, no matter what they have been through, are expected to pretend biology is irrelevant because a man has declared their feelings, and that takes priority.

In the last 2 days a man's feelings have been prioritised over fairness for women in sport and safety of women in prison. This is just a smaller version of that.

Believe what you lime Onion, couldn't care less. I don't have any particularly strong view about transgender either. Views however minimising the experiences of people who have sexually abused however are something I feel strongly about.

And the fetishist post is just horrible. There's no evidence that this woman has any kind of fetish. Or will behave in any way inappropriately

Completely agree

The trans woman hasn't said that she wants to be invited or that she expects her feelings to take priority though?

www.crossdreamers.com/2010/02/how-many-autogynephiliacs-are-there.html

Here's research from an organization that specifically is for autogynephiles (who often call themselves "crossdreamers"). It's not from a feminist website or anyone opposed to the trans phenomenon. According to them, 45-80% of MTFs are autogynephiles.

Gosh, well this has escalated.

Debates on the much-maligned Feminist board here never get as fighty as this.

JellyFizz, you have linked to a different person/ case

I went to DPs on our first date. And he wasn't a rapist.

So what? What has that got to do with the price of fish?

The thing is that much as many people would like to pretend otherwise, the idea that transwomen are female is a deeply political subject.

And at the moment free thought on this matter, in personal situations, is still allowed. My opinion is that you shouldn't impose your sexual politics on other women.

Good luck.

OK, so because you engaged in risky behavior once, other women should have to, or they're bigots?

Many women would be comfortable with an MTF or even a known fetishist in the hot tub with them, as long as they were confident nothing bad would happen. Others won't be. Why are you shaming one choice?

There is evidence this person is a fetishist. They are in a heterosexual relationship yet call it so called "lesbian" which is frankly insulting to lesbians. Either the partner is bisexual or is a coerced lesbian, and there's much evidence on the net from coerced lesbians of their experiences. Odds on the transwoman is going to be offended rather than understanding to OP.

Batteriesallgone:

Of course it isn't the victim's fault! But it is for her to seek the support she needs and, unfortunately, she will need to come to terms with the continued existence of people who are going to make her feel uncomfortable. She can't (and I assume doesn't) expect others to exclude themselves from all social occasions.

So if being a transwoman is nothing to be ashamed of, why the insistence that they are a woman rather than a transwoman? Women and Transwomen are not the same, they have different experiences and different needs. Women need smear tests and mammograms, transwomen need prostate and testicle checks. Transwomen may need the opportunity to discuss the difficulties they faced before transition and how that has affected them but women won't have had that experience. Women are vastly underrepresented in high paying and senior jobs so need policies put in place to counteract that. It isn't fair to either women or transwomen to pretend that these differences are not there.

Barcoo2:

Really? Well it's great to see the whole situation is clear to you

I know if wasn't his fault trifle. He had just popped in with friends fella to grab something. If friends dp had known I was there he wouldn't have invited him in, because he knows me and is a nice man.

My point is the minimising here is disgusting.

So many posts going ohhh a penis oh no.
Like we are just being dramatic.

Posts saying oh what's the problem is the victim gonna avoid men. Yes some of us fucking have too.

Ok if you do invite your cousin make sure you warn your friend. If I was in a hot tub fully expecting it to be only females I would be fuming if a transwomen was there.

If I was told beforehand I would back out, no problem. I wouldn't hold it against you.

If its already booked op you could have that for friends only and do something separate for family.

I notice that the women here who think it should be ok to exclude the MTF from the hen do aren't saying "all MTFs should be excluded from all hen dos, and anyone ever accepting one to her hen do, even if she's friends with the MTF in question, is a bad person who should be ashamed of herself."

I daresay most of us believe that if everyone feels safe and comfortable with the invitee list, you can invite anyone and that's fine. If you want to be inclusive, that's absolutely your right and may be a nice thing to do.

And yet on the other side, we get accusations of bigotry and prudishness and everything else for saying it's okay to sometimes be exclusionary, or to care more about a traumatised woman than a man who may be a fetishist.

Fwiw I'm pretty sure that if someone took my brain out of my head and put it in s jar, 'The man with two brains ' style, Im fairly sure I would still feel like s woman

But if your brain had existed in the jar from birth without a female body and female socialisation, would you still feel like a woman?

The reasons women have had enough of just being nice and accepting trans women saying they are women because of a feeling, are several;
Being a woman isn't something you feel. Being female is objectively riskier and less privileged than being female. Identifying as female is not only impossible (as it's a physical state) but also offensive.
Women need certain segregated spaces for safety reasons and also to redress structural inequality that has led to women having fewer opportunities than men. If we are forced to accept that being a woman is a feeling then we can no longer maintain sex segregated spaces.
It's offensive. The idea that men and women have fundamentally different brains is unscientific and totally anti woman. Accepting the 'feels like a woman' narrative is accepting that women's brains are different to men's and also that male people can have female brains. The first assertion is offensive and the second one is nonsensical.

We as a society should be kind and respectful towards trans people and ensure they are protected from discrimination. That does not extend to accepting as fact the incorrect assertion that identifying as a woman is the same as being a woman.