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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think Dd needs to stop back chatting the teachers?

139 replies

PossumInAPearTree · 20/03/2017 18:07

16yo Dd had permission from her art teacher to stay in art dept at lunchtime and do some work. Head of art walks past, sees Dd there and "screams" at her to get out.

Dd tells her that Mr X has given her permission (fair enough), teacher "shouts" at her that if she's not out the classroom in 30 seconds she will be banned from the art dept for a term.

Dd then asks her if that ban will include being banned from lessons! . Dd thinks she's perfectly in the right. She doesn't see that asking if a ban would also mean being banned from lessons is arguing/cheeky/no bloody need/she should just have left.

So now she's sobbing and accusing me of having a go at her!

She was arguing with a maths teacher last week that he didn't know what a Venn diagram was and was teaching them something incorrect (she was right but I don't think arguing with him so much that she's been moved to the back row is good).

She's like this at home as well. Has to have the last word on everything and I'm sick of it. Is it normal for a teen to be so bloody argumentative? She has a total inability to take a step back and realise that sometimes it's time to bite your tongue.

OP posts:

Iggi999 · 21/03/2017 21:52

I doubt very much that any of the pupils who are stroppy in my school are doing it as they have "more brains" than me.

Boiing · 21/03/2017 21:54

Yabu.

Etymology23 · 21/03/2017 21:54

Sometimes cover teachers are shocking though.

I had times in school when we had cover supervisors when I ended up at the front teaching the class because the work we had been left was complex and the supervisor had no clue what was going on, so agreed to let me teach. More effective than nothing but still none ideal.

I imagine I was an exceedingly annoying teenager - I was bright and quick but couldn't deal well with nonsense, and it's something I still really struggle with at work. Most of the teachers like me because I was hard working, mainly polite and keen to participate in class.

However when a teacher was wrong I would really struggle to let it go. Not spelling mistakes, but where there was a fundamental lack of understanding, I think it's quite wrong to let the teacher teach the entire class wrongly. Yes, teachers are right most of the time, but not always. Someone tried to teach a friend of mine that candle wax doesn't burn, it just evaporates and the wick is the only bit that burns. That's appalling from a science teacher.

I now tend to use: "so what I understand from what you're saying is xxxx but I thought that this was yyyyy because of zzzz and I don't really understand why xxxx is the case and yyyy isn't?" And for things like the teacher "I'm happy to leave with you, but if I get a note from ms xxx will it be ok to be back another day, or is there a specific ban from lunchtime working? " Or "I'm really keen to get some extra work done on this, as I'm trying to pull my grade up - is it possible for me to come back another time or get a note from miss showing I have permission?"

If your DD generally works hard then most teachers will like her. A healthy disrespect for authority is generally a good thing. Lots of authority figures do stupid things and we should just accept it.

The other thing that got me through school was remembering that you're just playing society's game: in order to make life easier it's good to have a clutch of decent exam results. To do this you have to go to school and do exams. You may as well make this as easy as possible for yourself. Best way to do that? Work consistently fairly hard, revise efficiently, cram hard and don't be so much of a pain in the arse that teachers don't want to help you. It's society's game, they make the rules and the way to win is to play by them.

(But I also refused to wear school uniform for 7 years, fought an entire department and won and came out with the best a levels my school had ever had - so I guess I maybe got more leeway because of that.)

Etymology23 · 21/03/2017 21:55

Shouldn't just accept it*

DragonFire99 · 21/03/2017 21:58

God, she sounds annoying. Imagine if all DC in a class back-chatted like she does. Nobody would ever get anything done.

She needs to learn that she's not the most important/clever person around, and to be quiet and listen to other people.

Eolian · 21/03/2017 22:11

When you are dealing with your own teenager at home, explaining and justifying yourself to them may be appropriate. When you are a teacher in a school full of hundreds of teenagers, the teenagers essentially need to bloody well do as they're told, or chaos will ensue.

Sometimes a teacher will get something wrong (especially if they are in a cover lesson for a subject they don't teach). Sometimes (like the art room example) a teacher's instructions might contradict those of another teacher. The students still need to do what they're told. Teenagers claiming that they have permission from another teacher are quite often lying. As are teenagers who claim people have screamed at them.

the work we had been left was complex and the supervisor had no clue what was going on

A cover supervisor shouldn't need to be able to do the work. The work set should always be self-explanatory for the class. I am a qualified teacher with an Oxford degree and 20 years' teaching experience. In mfl. I'm also a cover supervisor. Put me in a top set GCSE physics class and I wouldn't have a clue. That's not because I'm 'shocking', it's because I'm not a physics teacher.

BeaderBird · 21/03/2017 22:20

I'm often accused of 'getting in their face' and 'disrespecting them' when I discipline them. I haven't had to raise my voice in years and teachers rarely do (IME) as, generally, kids have been taught little sense of respect/responsibility/boundaries and think nothing of matching your energy which makes you very vulnerable.

Sounds like you believe everything your DD tells you - which is a concern. Yes, asking if it included lessons was rude and argumentative. She sounds bright enough to know the answer so it was an attempt to fan the flames.

user1489179512 · 21/03/2017 22:25

DragonFire99

God, she sounds annoying. Imagine if all DC in a class back-chatted like she does. Nobody would ever get anything done

She needs to learn that she's not the most important/clever person around, and to be quiet and listen to other people.

Totally agree. She sounds like a pain.

Etymology23 · 21/03/2017 22:40

That's not because I'm 'shocking', it's because I'm not a physics teacher

The work wasn't self explanatory though, or I wouldn't have had to teach the rest of the class. Shocking was unfair in that instance, I was really transferring the main teacher's ineffective teaching methods and projecting them onto the supervisor of that lesson.

wannabestressfree · 21/03/2017 23:30

I was like this at school and I am like it as a teacher now. I know when it's coming and try to block...:) still love it though.

wannabestressfree · 21/03/2017 23:33

Cover work at our school is not supposed to be a proper lesson with lesson objectives and breakdowns. They are supposed to be able to be taught by a non professional and genuinely when thought about ahead it is accessible. Mistakes are made though.

Tabymoomoo · 21/03/2017 23:57

This is a great opportunity to teach your teenager how to handle confrontation (with a superior) appropriately.

In the first case even if the teacher was in the wrong (and I very much doubt there was any screaming) she should have politely said Mr X said I could be here and then just done as she was told (leave) without asking extra questions. She could then have gone to Mr X (at an appropriate time) and explained what had happened leaving Mr X to speak to the head of department.

In the second case even if the teacher was teaching something incorrect (although could it have been a misunderstanding of the explanation on your dd's part?) she should not be telling him he didn't know what a Venn diagram was, she sounds plain rude to me! If he had said something incorrect she could have politely suggested something might be wrong (ideally not in front of the class) but even better to wait until after the class and ask for clarification e.g. "Sorry Mr Y I am a little confused on your explanation of Venn diagrams, I understood this to be the case...."

It comes down to not who was in the right but how to speak with respect to superiors.

Newmanwannabe · 22/03/2017 02:41

Our system is so flawed. We are teaching our children to be independent critical thinkers and that they are "partners in their education" etc. but then we also expect them to toe the line and do as they are told. Massive mixed messages it's no wonder they are often gobby little shits mind are no exception

You listen to any gen X complain about the "me me me" gen Y and you can see it's a product of the "system". Its only going to get worse as people think they are more entitled than they are and methods of discipline are reduced.

We have all these fabulous ideas and theories in place of how we should be but no actual structure to follow it through.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 03:46

Thing is though to an extent teachers need to earn that respect

No, we don't. We are entitled to it by virtue of being in a position of authority. Same with my boss - he/ she outranks me and has no need to 'earn' what they have already earned through experience.

Bluntness100 · 22/03/2017 03:56

I'm not sure what this poster means by a Venn diagram does not have. To over lap and can have dispari points but in triangles.

I'm no maths expert but I'm unsure that's still a Venn diagram.

I'd say for the age of your daughter and what was being taught, she was correct.a Venn diagram over laps and as such the teacher was asking for the wrong model.

I just get the impression you seem very keen to tell her she's wrong op. Ten people (or whatever) says she's right. One says she's wrong and you go tell her she's wrong.

Good for her in arguing her case. She should be confident. Yes she needs to learn when to walk away from an argument, but based on your speed to tell her how wrong she was, I wonder if you personally have that ability?

Bluntness100 · 22/03/2017 03:57

Sorry in rectangles!

Bluntness100 · 22/03/2017 04:01

No, we don't. We are entitled to it

Not sure about that to be honest. I think everyone needs to earn respect whatever their role, yes of course the going in position should be respect, but you need to work to keep it. And quite frankly we all know there is some bad teachers out there. Just like any other section of society.

If you're a crap teacher you should expect to lose the respect of your pupils. If you're wrong you should be adult enough and able to set an example by accepting that with a good grace.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 04:11

Bluntness100:

There is personal respect, which I can lose (and I agree needs to be earned) and there is respect for my authority in my role as their teacher and as an adult, which I can't lose.

TBH the kids are completely entitled to privately believe me to be a grade A plonker if they want to. I don't care. But when I say do X, I expect them to do it. School rules agree with me.

echt · 22/03/2017 05:45

The undiscussed plonker here is the head of Art for not giving the student a note to show the member of staff that they were allowed to be in the classroom. I would always ask a pupil in a classroom what they are doing and would check up that they had permission, and would not take the pupil's word for it, for the simple reason that there is always a safeguarding issued for pupils who are unattended, which this student was.

MaisyPops · 22/03/2017 06:38

I would always ask a pupil in a classroom what they are doing and would check up that they had permission, and would not take the pupil's word for it, for the simple reason that there is always a safeguarding issued for pupils who are unattended, which this student was
Especially if theyre in a block qhere students arent habitually allowed in over lunch.
The students should have left when told to and then spoken tonher teacher.

Agree with what other posters say about respect. There is respect for authority and personal respect. You earn personal respect but ive seen too many teacher leave yhe profession because the kids have decided teachers have to earn the right to good behaviour and appropriate attitude. The basics apply to all staff: teachers, TAs, offixe staff, lunch staff.

badhotfanny · 22/03/2017 06:39

Bluntness. You say you are no expert in maths but are challenging someone who sounds like they know what they are talking about. Why would you even do that? Why not accept someone knows something you don't?

CauliflowerSqueeze · 22/03/2017 06:41

Trifleorbust - correct

Thing is though to an extent teachers need to earn that respect

No, we don't. We are entitled to it by virtue of being in a position of authority. Same with my boss - he/ she outranks me and has no need to 'earn' what they have already earned through experience.

Correct.

Gileswithachainsaw · 22/03/2017 06:45

Same with my boss - he/ she outranks me and has no need to 'earn' what they have already earned through experience

Sorry but like fuck was I going to respect a boss who told everyone not to let me do something as I was to stupid.

Don't care who you are that's bloody nasty and why the hell does someone so nasty and unprofessional deserve my respect. Especially given I worked my arse of for them.

TumsMet · 22/03/2017 06:54

@Bluntness

It's been a few years since learning set theory (at uni) but to say "a Venn diagram over laps and as such the teacher was asking for the wrong model." is simply inaccurate.

Take the set 'things on TumsMet desk'. Two subsets, 'things which hold water' and 'Things made by apple mac'. They are disjoint. They do not intersect. Children in year 2 do simple A U D and A ^ D venn diagrams.

Lweji · 22/03/2017 06:56

She was wrong on the diagram if the teacher wanted to show non overlapping groups.

At least she should have waited until they finished.

But, and being a teacher, I'd have explained it to her or tell her to wait.

As for the art head, it sounds like there was no need to shout.

Unless your DD is not telling the full story.

I'd take her story with a pinch of salt (or several), but if you're concerned I'd have a chat with the school to clarify what the issues are with her. Don't wait for the end of term.

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