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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think Dd needs to stop back chatting the teachers?

139 replies

PossumInAPearTree · 20/03/2017 18:07

16yo Dd had permission from her art teacher to stay in art dept at lunchtime and do some work. Head of art walks past, sees Dd there and "screams" at her to get out.

Dd tells her that Mr X has given her permission (fair enough), teacher "shouts" at her that if she's not out the classroom in 30 seconds she will be banned from the art dept for a term.

Dd then asks her if that ban will include being banned from lessons! Hmm. Dd thinks she's perfectly in the right. She doesn't see that asking if a ban would also mean being banned from lessons is arguing/cheeky/no bloody need/she should just have left.

So now she's sobbing and accusing me of having a go at her!

She was arguing with a maths teacher last week that he didn't know what a Venn diagram was and was teaching them something incorrect (she was right but I don't think arguing with him so much that she's been moved to the back row is good).

She's like this at home as well. Has to have the last word on everything and I'm sick of it. Is it normal for a teen to be so bloody argumentative? She has a total inability to take a step back and realise that sometimes it's time to bite your tongue.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 21/03/2017 19:12

PossumInAPearTree

You dd is wrong about venn diagram.

To think Dd needs to stop back chatting the teachers?
BoneyBackJefferson · 21/03/2017 19:15

TheRealPooTroll
Surely the overlapping bit of the Venn diagram would just be empty assuming you could split subjects into 'includes maths' and 'doesn't include maths' which I don't think you can

I suspect that part of the lesson is that the things that "don't include maths" do and here is the link in the venn diagram.

But as the teacher didn't get that far etc.

MaisyPops · 21/03/2017 19:17

I teach y11.
Some of them consider being given reasonable instructions to be screaming. Theyre quite tetchy at this stage in the year too.

I tell mine its perfectly fine to query a teacher (one of mine found a typing mistake id made in a revision handout) but they have to do it in a way that is respectful.

Tone of voice is everything and having chatted to a y11 as thry relayed a situation with a different teacher. I told them that of they used the tone they used whilst retelling the events im not surprised they got told off. Sometomes they dont hear their own tone of voice.

TheRealPooTroll · 21/03/2017 19:19

A Venn diagram is an odd way to present that idea though. I'm imagining a class full of kids scratching their heads wondering why there is a section for subjects that both include and don't include maths simultaneously.
Unless it was some kind of thought experiment.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/03/2017 19:23

TheRealPooTroll

You are not thinking like a teenager, they can think in absolutes and often don't make the connections. I have done similar with technology and other subjects to give an overview of how cross curriculum links can work

ScoobyDoosTinklyLaugh · 21/03/2017 19:42

I was like this in school and I still am a bit of a gobby cow. I think it's a good thing Smile

Original poster
PossumInAPearTree · 21/03/2017 19:43

Dd says the teacher drew two circles on the board at different sides of the board, not touching, not overlapping.

OP posts:
Original poster
PossumInAPearTree · 21/03/2017 19:46

Oh and he's not a maths teacher btw, he's a cover supervisor who was given work to teach but said he didn't want to do what the maths teacher had left him so he wasn't going to teach them Venn diagrams.

Dd has since told the proper maths teacher about his departure from what he was meant to do and Dd reckons proper maths teacher wasn't very impressed.

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 21/03/2017 19:48

he's a cover supervisor who was given work to teach but said he didn't want to do what the maths teacher had left him so he wasn't going to teach them Venn diagrams.
ARGH! No wonder the maths teacher wasnt impressed. I hate it when i set cover and someone decides they know better than my work (especially if theyre no actually a teacher).

On the attitude front though, my experience is students speak to cover staff in a way they wouldnt to their 'real' teacher.

noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 19:49

You can have non-overlapping circles in a Venn diagram, they are called disjoint sets. They should be within a rectangle though.

Original poster
PossumInAPearTree · 21/03/2017 20:01

I've told dd she was wrong about the Venn diagram and guess what?

She's still arguing the toss!

OP posts:
tanfield90 · 21/03/2017 21:02

We're all human beings and some are cleverer than others. This goes for pupils and teachers. Teachers may learn how to teach at college but what they don't learn is how to handle another human being( e.g. a pupil) who has more brains than they do and who isn't afraid to demonstrate as such. Being proven wrong isn't part of the script as far as teachers are concerned so they revert to type.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/03/2017 21:10

tanfield90

What "type" do teachers revert to?

Please complete your generalisation

CauliflowerSqueeze · 21/03/2017 21:14

It's not to do with cleverness. It's about being respectful of authority. Many kids mix up the fact that they are "equal" in terms of being humans but do not have equal status in the classroom with a teacher. Just like most of us would word things respectfully when talking to our boss, kids need to understand that in order to get on well in life, you need to adapt how you respond when you're talking to your friends and those who have a higher status than you.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/03/2017 21:16

Thing is though to an extent teachers need to earn that respect.

I would never ever dream of going into a class not listening and causing trouble because I hadn't decided on the teacher yet.

However I can assure you I had zero respect fir the teachers who humiliated me in front of everyone, went back on what they said and blatantly lied to my face.

And no just because I had no respect fir them doesn't mean that I made their lives difficult. I still behaved in class.

CauliflowerSqueeze · 21/03/2017 21:19

You can have zero respect for someone without acting disrespectfully, as you say.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/03/2017 21:19

I can't say though that the put up and shut up I endured through school hasn't contributed to the fact I'm still a walk over to those day.

When you can't speak up in school and others who harassed or bullied you get away with things whilst you somehow end up the one in trouble... well it does damage you sometimes.

leccybill · 21/03/2017 21:21

Actually tanfield90 a large part of teacher training is based around behaviour management, as it is such a huge part of the job.

And believe it or not, we're not interested in being 'proven wrong'- there's much more pressing problems in teaching than getting one over on teenagers.

This is about exercising authority where and when it is rightly needed, when you are dealing with large numbers of people (of any age).

CauliflowerSqueeze · 21/03/2017 21:21

There's a way of raising an issue without being disrespectful. The option isn't either to be a doormat or to be a disrespectful arse.

echt · 21/03/2017 21:24

Being proven wrong isn't part of the script as far as teachers are concerned so they revert to type.

Generalising much, tanfield?

Teachers have a script, do they?

Revert to what type, exactly?

Astoria7974 · 21/03/2017 21:34

At her age I'd expect her to know when it's appropriate to be gobby and when it's not, ie have some kind of survival instinct? She sounds all so terribly naive. If she took this attitude to the workplace she wouldn't last the day.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/03/2017 21:37

Wish I'd known that cauli

As a kid though you can only go by the messages you receive.

And MN seems to be very anti "bringing things up"
There's always some greater good cited for reasons children or teens have to put up with stuff at school tarts inappropriate distressing or causing problems with getting work done.

There's no way I could have said anything to my parents knowing "adults are always right"

So I put up with bullying and being unjustly thrown out of class and teachers tapping me on the shoulder mid exams and taking my stuff to give to other kids to borrow.

Wish I'd have had a bit of fight about me like the ops kid tbh

Wolfiefan · 21/03/2017 21:38

She's still arguing the toss?
So she's an argumentative stroppy madam at home and at school? I'm up for debate and discussion but stroppy arguing needs punishment.
I would focus on how best to get what she wants. (How to speak to the head of art so as not to get chucked out) and how which battles not to fight. Why is she telling tales on the cover teacher and reporting back how unimpressed her teacher was? Hmm

wisemonkey · 21/03/2017 21:45

If your daughter had been given permission to stay in good for her for telling that to the Head of Art, who should have had the grace to accept she was in the wrong. If teachers are wrong I see no reason why pupils shouldn't tell them so (respectfully), OP you should be pleased you have a daughter who is able to stand up for herself, she will probably go far in life.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/03/2017 21:51

wisemonkey

Do you have any idea of the amount of children that say that they have permission to be in a classroom when they don't?

Many schools have an 'only allowed in a classroom when the teacher is there' rule.

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