To think Dd needs to stop back chatting the teachers?

[PossumInAPearTree]

16yo Dd had permission from her art teacher to stay in art dept at lunchtime and do some work. Head of art walks past, sees Dd there and "screams" at her to get out.

Dd tells her that Mr X has given her permission (fair enough), teacher "shouts" at her that if she's not out the classroom in 30 seconds she will be banned from the art dept for a term.

Dd then asks her if that ban will include being banned from lessons! . Dd thinks she's perfectly in the right. She doesn't see that asking if a ban would also mean being banned from lessons is arguing/cheeky/no bloody need/she should just have left.

So now she's sobbing and accusing me of having a go at her!

She was arguing with a maths teacher last week that he didn't know what a Venn diagram was and was teaching them something incorrect (she was right but I don't think arguing with him so much that she's been moved to the back row is good).

She's like this at home as well. Has to have the last word on everything and I'm sick of it. Is it normal for a teen to be so bloody argumentative? She has a total inability to take a step back and realise that sometimes it's time to bite your tongue.

If kids aren't allowed in unsupervised (which could be the rule) then why should the teacher check before chucking anyone out?

I don't know if you've been on lunch duty lately but going into a room with a brisk 'right, everybody out' gets far better results than a timid 'are you meant to be in here?' Enquiry. Because teenagers take the piss.

But what do I know given I've was frequently unfairly singled out just fir having the wrong kinda face and despite always doing what I was told screwed at anyway.

noblegiraffe

'Can you hand me that worksheet please?' 'it's not mine'
'Can you go outside please?' 'We're not doing anything wrong'
'Can you stop talking please?' 'I'm not the only one'

FFS just do it!

Yep.

God, yes.

Could you just pick that pencil up please?
'I didn't drop it'
Could you put the water bottle away please?
'But it's empty'
Could you give out the books please?
'Do I have to?'
Could you move along the row to this seat please?
'WHY'S IT ALWAYS MEEEEEEE'

I have these kinds of conversations hundreds of times a day. It's tiring.

And if the teacher doesn't want a mistake pointed out then how about they make sure their facts are correct befire teaching a load of wrong stuff to the class.

The teacher made a mistake teaching Venn diagrams - the follow on from which can get tricky and everyone makes mistakes. It isn't about making sure your facts are correct before "teaching stuff". They may have simply used the letter from the wrong set. I'm sure you know how to spell 'before' correctly but there are ways of pointing it out and the girl's mother suspects it wasn't politely.

But what do I know given I've was frequently unfairly singled out just fir having the wrong kinda face and despite always doing what I was told screwed at anyway.

I have a feeling you didn't always pay attention in English.

Out of the hundreds of teenagers who complain about being singled out for the wrong kind of face, I'd say a tiny fraction of a percent are correct.

I paid attention in all my classes.

I was the model pupil actually. I sat down I was quiet I did my work and conceded I was wrong even when I was right.

Well I'm going to assume I was right given the teacher word from word repeated my answer to the class despite looking at me like I was shit on the bottom of her shoe. And yes she asked the class a question. Yes I put my hand up and waited to be picked. And yes I was meant to be speaking when I have said answer. And yes my contribution was correct. It was on the bored and the hand it and in the text book.

Board.

Ffs autocorrect

Giles it sounds like you had a crsppy experience at school. There are nasty teachers out there but I do honestly believe nowadays they are fewer and fewer.

It's really important that we sympathise with our children and show that we care that they are annoyed/upset. What happened to the ops dd IS annoying and it sounds like the teachers WERE wrong.

But there are still lessons to be learnt from the fact she got in trouble.

Sometimes annoying things happen. Last term I toddled along to the hall with my class to find ks1 practicing for the nativity. They hadn't booked it, they hadn't asked, they were completely in the wrong. But what was I going to do? Chuck out 3 classes of kids and make them pack away all the benches and props. No. I "rolled over" and allowed for mistakes. And silently fumed as I had nothing to hand to teach instead and had been really looking forward to a bit of netball!

Well she could have handled it better but she's 16. She was right on both occasions to be quite honest in with her. If she is being honest with how she was being spoken to (other than the being screamed at which is unlikely) the teacher could have explained why she couldn't be in the classroom. Her response about lessons was cheeky but also could have been seen as a perfectly reasonable question. On your daughters side here!

You say it rarely happens well

But I experienced this through primary secondary and college.

Things like being thrown out a lesson when I had literally said nothing and was busy writing from the board at the time. I was sat next to one of the kids own class disrupters so I'm guessing when he was messing about they assumed it was me talking. It wasn't but I left the class anyway.

I was shouted at in class because I was ignoring a boy who kept asking me out over and over in the lesson so I put my hand up to ask a question because I'd missed what was said as this boy was in my ear the entire time and I was yelled at. He of course had nothing said to him.

I was yelled at because wouldn't do a dissection. But I knew it was coming up and I had already spoken to the teacher nicely and politely and he'd already reassured me I wouldn't have to do it that I could look in book. He then proceeded to have a go at me in front of everyone on the day. So much for what had appeared to be a friendly reassuring chat at the time.

I did have some nice teachers for some subjects at least. Others however.....

I think what some people fail to appreciate is that teachers don't make their jobs any easier to do by providing teenagers with explanations all day long, even when the teenager is reasonable in asking for one. A certain amount (being able to teach your lesson/safeguard the students) relies on things being done 'because you said so'. Cultivating a no-nonsense, no explanations image is a way to ensure that, on that one day when there is an intruder/fire/fight and you NEED to clear an area and you DON'T have time to explain why, your instructions are followed by hundreds of people without question. Some people automatically think the worst of teachers almost all of the time and imagine they want this sort of authority because they are petty little Napoleons; far from it. They do it because it protects the kids in the long run, to do as they are asked 99% of the time.

Of course there is that 1% of the time where there is something important the teacher is unaware of - someone has fainted and the student has come for a glass of water, for example. It is actually a lot easier for the student to speak up and be heard by the teacher if they aren't both existing in a culture where students are constantly questioning authority. The teacher is far more likely to recognise that this is a 1% situation if the student usually just follows instructions.

The best reply to gobby people who always have to have the last word is:
"Have the last word - you obviously need it."

It's about respecting authority though, isn't it Giles? The teacher clearly jumped to conclusions in ordering the girl out, but the correct response would be to do as you're told, whilst politely trying to explain that there's been a misunderstanding. I don't see that as "playing dead" or being a doormat.
Hallelujah!

Yes thank you Trifle, you've explained it much better than me!

Just to highlight at 18 she wouldn't be expected to put up with the same shit from 'adults' and 'teachers'. She would call them out on being wrong like most adults would.

At 16 she's ahead of the rest of them. Let her get on with it.

Or maybe show her the other ways of fixing it, i.e. behind the useless person's back, reporting them or internally laughing while their world burns when senior management pick them up on it instead... you know, like grown-ups.

Breakfast duty - quiet,well- modulated tone 'Take your coat off inside school, please'.
2nd circuit of dining hall, same well-modulated tone 'This is the second time I've asked you. Take your coat off please.'
Pupil claps hands over ears in apparent agony. 'Alright Miss. Stop SHOUTING at me!'
I have neither the desire nor the energy to shout at that time in the morning.

The sheer amount of time and energy wasted repeating instructions because they aren't followed the first time is horrendous.

I wouldn't be a teacher for a million pounds. I always had a healthy respect for authority and would be one of the ones asked to move because I didn't kick up a fuss. Got on well with the teachers and still managed to have discussions about what they were teaching if it was appropriate. You can correct teachers without being an arsehole about it!

Yes Trifle

One thing that is getting more and more apparent is that not only do some teens think they are equal to staff, some genuinely think they are ABOVE them.

Take today. I watched as a colleague asked a boy to move away from a door he was kicking. Said student shoulder barged His way through my colleague. Colleague held his arm up to say wait to him and student launched into a foul mouthed tirade "you can't fucking touch me, I'll do you, ducking cunt!"

So they can physically hurt us but we are t allowed to even gesture at them, in their eyes.

I've had enough.

I had a teacher come into the classroom at break and attempt to send me and 3 boys out. The policy was everyone outside so she thought she was in the right... I pointed out that I was keeping them in for breaktime detention. She hadn't recognised me from behind. She took it with minimal grace.

It was a tough year, not helped by her repeatedly not successfully identifying me as the teacher amongst my year 8 classes which dominated my timetable.

There is a very grey continuum in where a valid point is being made against a teacher and where it simply is backchat. A lot will depend on tone and manner. I agree with a PP that if the initial point is ill received, then any further elaboration is doomed to failure. If someone feels a need to defend their corner at a bad moment, I tend to ask them to discuss it with me after. Then I'm in a better position to listen and respond.

I had this today

I was talking to a boy

Another teacher came in and started screaming at the boy

Boy started 'back chatting' the teacher

Boy is now in isolation.

Boy was 100% in the right.

Sometimes listening to your child is the right thing to do.

When the art teacher saw her, was she doing what she should have been doing? It's one thing to have permission to work, she may not have been meant to play on her phone/eat/put feet up on desk etc. Maybe the other teacher needed time in the room by herself. It's odd the teacher who have permission then went away! It is nice that you are bothered by her behaviour, many parents aren't (or maybe that's just what the teenagers tell me)

Dd was working when the teacher came in. She's generally a geeky, hard working kid and has never been in trouble for messing about and moans to me about kids who do.

I think I was just trying to get through to Dd that she can't talk to a teacher the way she does to a friend. Sometimes my boss spouts a load of rubbish but I get to a point where I shut up and let it wash over me as if I keep trying to put my point across it won't go down well. Teachers are in a position of authority and sometimes you just have to do as you're told whether you agree with it or not. I've no problem with Dd initially saying that another teacher had given her permission but when she was still told to leave i feel she should have left.

As for the Venn diagram.......the teacher said draw a circle and write in it subjects which include an element of maths. Then draw a circle and write in it subjects which don't include any maths. Dd gave a lengthy expLanation to the teacher that a Venn diagram is meant to have overlapping circles and that what he was asking was impossible to get a Venn diagram from it.

I think that in most of the examples from op and pp that it's often a case of not what's said, but the way it's said. That can be quite nuanced for a teen, who may get it as a concept, but not necessarily be able to deliver it. Added to that, teachers must be so fed up with getting earfulls of back chat, that they might tend to hear insolence when none was intended.

Surely the overlapping bit of the Venn diagram would just be empty assuming you could split subjects into 'includes maths' and 'doesn't include maths' which I don't think you can