To think Dd needs to stop back chatting the teachers?

[PossumInAPearTree]

16yo Dd had permission from her art teacher to stay in art dept at lunchtime and do some work. Head of art walks past, sees Dd there and "screams" at her to get out.

Dd tells her that Mr X has given her permission (fair enough), teacher "shouts" at her that if she's not out the classroom in 30 seconds she will be banned from the art dept for a term.

Dd then asks her if that ban will include being banned from lessons! . Dd thinks she's perfectly in the right. She doesn't see that asking if a ban would also mean being banned from lessons is arguing/cheeky/no bloody need/she should just have left.

So now she's sobbing and accusing me of having a go at her!

She was arguing with a maths teacher last week that he didn't know what a Venn diagram was and was teaching them something incorrect (she was right but I don't think arguing with him so much that she's been moved to the back row is good).

She's like this at home as well. Has to have the last word on everything and I'm sick of it. Is it normal for a teen to be so bloody argumentative? She has a total inability to take a step back and realise that sometimes it's time to bite your tongue.

My 13 year old daughter is like this.
She is very outspoken, confident and challenges when she feels that something is wrong, however sometimes it is plain cheek.
I had hoped it got better as they got older
I suppose it's a life lesson as a pp said.
I'll just keep pointing out the better way to deal with situations until it clicks!

YABU, you're undermining her and siding with others who were in the wrong.

My 15 yo DS was in detention last week.
They have to sit on their own at a table which he was. 2 other boys came in late & sat down at his table. The teacher on duty asked my son to move " why I was here first & you saw me here" - he was removed from the detention for answering the teacher back & now has had an extra 20 mins time added on !

I think he was in the right & was just stating a fact

user but why did your son have to do that? He wasn't in trouble, just being asked to move so that they were sitting separately. In fact, what you've described is a prime example of teenagers answering back just for the sake of it. Who was there first is such a stupid thing to answer back to a teacher about when they weren't even getting in trouble.

She's going to have an interesting time in her first job if she goes in with that attitude.... I have seen school leavers coming into a workplace and being gobby - it hasn't lasted long though

I think if she has raised something once and it's not been well received then she needs to learn to speak to someone else about it afterwards if it's important and if not then let it go. The art thing if she has permission every lunch time then she might need to ask the teacher who gave permission to let the other teacher know. And the maths thing I would just tell her that the important thing is that she knows the right way and it was good of her to point out the error but arguing is never going to go well. If similar errors are happening a lot then maybe you could query it with the maths lead - or your dd could. She sounds like a confident child who just needs a bit of guidance with approaching people. Tactfully dealing with people who are wrong but won't accept it isn't an easy thing!

You don't want her to stop back chatting you want her to basically roll over and play dead with the teachers.

Huge difference.

She had permission to be there and the maths teacher was wrong.

user1487450864:

Don't be daft. It's detention, you sit where you are told.

Paul - I understand how hard a job teachers have & it is made harder by constant backchat.
My DS had been at the detention for 10 mins already. Had all his work spread out and was keeping head his down & getting on with his stuff.
The other boys just sat down & weren't doing their work. I still believe they should have been asked to move & think his question was a valid one

user1487450864:

Lots of questions are valid, IF you are entitled to question instructions. Your DS was in detention at school - he had no right to question the instruction. I would have asked him once more and then reissued the detention.

Yes she should not behave in this way because it is rude and unpleasant. She is a mere pupil and she would do well to bear that in mind. Mouthing off at any teacher is not a good idea. Soon she will have a reputation whereas her perfectly pleasant and reasonable peers will be well liked by staff and students.

Go figure.

It's about respecting authority though, isn't it Giles? The teacher clearly jumped to conclusions in ordering the girl out, but the correct response would be to do as you're told, whilst politely trying to explain that there's been a misunderstanding. I don't see that as "playing dead" or being a doormat.

No, she should not behave in this way etc.
Lol

I feel your pain! My dd is turning 20 this week, and only in the last few months has she started to accept that just maybe, she doesn't have to challenge every authority figure.
She's feisty as fuck, smart as a whip and has been able to run rings around them for years. While she appears tough, she is actually quite tender hearted, but won't let it show.
It hasn't always worked out for her, and she has learned the hard way what happens when you piss people off (losing doctors, teachers that won't help).
At the same time, she is good about admitting she was wrong when she is, and doing something about it. But gosh, in between has turned a few hairs grey!

Gileswithachainsaw:

Surely the appropriate response (doing as you're told) isn't 'rolling over and playing dead'?

OP, you're right. There are ways of speaking and asking questions and pointing out mistakes. I doubt the teacher screamed at her, as you suggested in a later post. It's refreshing to not hear people shrug at having "back-chatty kids"

She's like this at home as well. Has to have the last word on everything and I'm sick of it.

Add in a few more of those, then give them the opportunity to disrupt you when you're trying to teach other children (and having to explain to senior management if you don't achieve whatever targets), and then do it for several hours a day... Sometimes teachers are a little harsh. Perhaps the head of art is already frustrated with your daughter from previous experience.

If teacher doesn't want kids to backchat, how about teaching them correctly?

Everyone makes mistakes. If a child correctly and appropriately points one out then I'll thank them or even reward or praise them. If they do it as a backchatty arsehole then I'll punish them.

How on earth was the maths teacher teaching venn diagrams?!

Set theory can get quite complex.

It's exactly the opposite of 'just rolling over'. Constantly fighting back at the most minor annoyances just causes more conflict as teachers will be on their guard.

More importantly it means that when she says 'the teacher screamed at me' people assume she is over exaggerating to make the teacher appear more unreasonable.

When something really genuinely bad happens (a teacher name-calling, being aggressive or offensive or inappropriate for example) - this is the time to fight back (although that doesn't always mean back chatting). It is then clear that this is a genuine issue because this person (adult or child) doesn't have a reputation for flying off the handle.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I wouldn't believe a child who came to me with a complaint against a teacher, no matter what their previous behaviour. Just that we all need to save our energy for important things.

am I the only one who thinks gobby teenagers are a pain in the arse? I'd be Telling her to mind her manners with adults and pipe down. Teaching is a thankless task these days and if everyone gave vent to their opinions - in most cases to impress their friends - no-one would want the job and where would the know all pupils be then. I work with children and believe me respect is hard to find these days.

What Giles said.

YANBU because in both instances you gave OP your daughter was in the right and the teachers were wrong.

She needs to be given a more nuanced explanation of why she was blamed and punished DESPITE being right.

The explanation being that a person in authority who has power over you is not infallible and will make glaring crap mistakes however that doesn't mean it's wise to draw attention to them.

Think of the workplace, how many of us have had incompetent crappy bosses? Same thing here. It's a life skill to cope with an incompetent boss and not either get fired or go totally insane with frustration. That's the skill for your daughter to learn OP.

Well she did tell the teacher she had permission.

She still got shouted at again.

Hardly her fault that teachers can't talk to each other or that they immediately assume the kids up to no good without even checking first.

No one seems to have considered that a) the art teacher might have been in the wrong to allow students in unsupervised and that the head of art was right in telling her to leave and
B) just how many teenagers say 'Mrs X said we could stay in here' when actually she didn't.

Non-compliance in teenagers is a total pain in the arse, allow them to argue and you'll be there all day with them walking all over you.

Re: son in detention.
I'd have prob asked your son to move too. If I didn't know him (I don't know all 1600 students in my school), his conscientious manner, books laid out etc, would suggest he's a compliant, decent sort who would offer the least resistance out of the three boys at being told where to sit. It's not a punishment, being told to move. It's just an instruction.
Perhaps moving your quiet and compliant son near to the back meant I could keep a closer eye on the two newcomers who might be known for being more troublesome. Perhaps I didn't want those two in a place where they could signal to friends through the door/window, mess with wall display/radiator/any tiny item on the desk. Any number of reasons really.

See how nuanced these situations can be now? It's hard. But teens don't like to 'lose face' by simply complying without a bit of opinion, and that's where it's even harder.

But a) that's not the kids fault. Take it up with the art teacher.

And b) well you aren't going to know without using your words and asking are you.

'Can you hand me that worksheet please?' 'it's not mine'
'Can you go outside please?' 'We're not doing anything wrong'
'Can you stop talking please?' 'I'm not the only one'

FFS just do it!

Those examples I get.

But we aren't talking about that are we.

We are talking about a teacher who despite the pupil doing the right thing and getting permission etc and being exactly where she was allowed to be, assumed instantly that the kid was hoping to no good without having the decency to check any facts first and screwed at a kid fir doing something she's allowed to do.

And if the teacher doesn't want a mistake pointed out then how about they make sure their facts are correct befire teaching a load of wrong stuff to the class.