To be fucking furious this is happening to women's sports

[Bambambini]

For all those who think trans politics doesn't affect you or your daughters - please read this article of a male forcing women out of their sport and the authorities are letting this happen. If you don't give a shiney shit about this incident - what exactly will it take for you to sit up and take notice and start saying enough.

m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

I'm waiting for the first well known sports women (and men) to do a Jenni Murray and come out and talk about this. They must be discussing it in private.

Morphene if you just have one open category for everyone, then imo very quickly sport will become totally male dominated and women will disappear from all elite and intermediate sport. No women will ever be talked about in sports news, no mention of women at the Olympics and so on. No women will be able to be professional athletes, no sponsorships or advertising deals. Women won't take part in sporting life. The same will eventually happen in all levels of sport. Boys and men will dominate and opportunities for girls and women will disappear. Certain sports like rugby would be dangerous for women to attempt to play against men, so I don't know how that would even work.

Certain sports like rugby would be dangerous for women to attempt to play against men, so I don't know how that would even work

It quite simply wouldn't - women's right to play would be completely eroded.

I have played/coached for many years. I have played with and against hundreds and hundreds of other women of all shapes and sizes. I have never played against a woman the size of FuiFui MoiMoi or Maki Vunipola. I have never played against a woman with the height of a Martin Bayfield for example.

A transwomen doesn't lose the male attributes that could make transwomen playing rugby pretty damn dangerous. And of course not all men are the size of the aforementioned. But it has to be a consideration.

The incredible thing is that not everyone can see how blatantly unfair this is.

The feelings of trans women seem to be of more importance than fundamental questions of fairness. It can only be concluded that the rights of women are of no importance for large sections of the population.

It is terrifying.

This is TW rugby player Caroline Layt's account of their experience playing women's rugby. The hate and bullying from their team mates, the pleasure from seeing the fear in a young opponent's eyes. And how nasty TERF's are just jealous and have penis envy. It's mind numbingly long, deluded and self indulgent / but gives some insight into Layt's mentality.

carolinelayt.tumblr.com/post/150343141737/now-i-know-why-i-was-so-hated-i-was-bullied

assassinated

I agree that the profile of women in elite sport will drop, though it isn't actually much to speak of anyway.

I am not sure I believe in the knock on effect on everyone else though.

I took up sport because my parents did it, and my DD is doing the same. I don't know that I need someone who looks like me to inspire me to have fun. And actually there is no one who looks like me playing sport at an elite level, because in order to be that good you have to have a completely different physique from me.

I don't really find elite athletes that inspirational. I don't find it very compelling to worship genetic advantage, or extreme obsessive behaviour. I worry about what happens to sports people when they suffer either age or injury. The number of ex-olympic swimmers in rehab isn't something the sport should be proud of. At then there are all the people who worked their asses off all their lives and never quite made it to the olympics. What was the point of their sacrifice or their family's.

The whole of elite sport is a shit set up designed to chew up and destroy people, while making a lot of money for a very very few people.

What would you like to seen happen to also produce the downfall of men's elite sport then, if you're happy to see women's elite sport disappear? Or is it ok just for women's sport to go, and men can carry on as usual?

Presumably the Paralympics would disappear too?

Whether each of us individually is interested in or inspired by elite athletes is immaterial. There are girls and young women for whom this is important, so they should have our support. I wouldn't expect to hear anyone saying it was ok for women to be excluded from any other field of human endeavour because an individual didn't personally care about it.

humphrey or maybe people realise that sport was never fair in the first place?

Of course it is hideously unfair for men to compete against women. Just as it is hideously unfair for people who are 6 foot 5 to compete against people who are 4 foot at high jump. It is unfair for anyone to have to compete against Usain Bolt or Phelps.

Everyone who ever made it to an olympic final had a massive unfair advantage over the average human, in their hormone levels, their bone structure, their tolerance to pain and training, their lung capacity, heart function, muscle structure etc.etc.

Saying you can have a separate category for XX individuals doubles the number of winners, but it didn't at any point make it fair.

In trying to make it fairer on for all sorts of intersex conditions the lines got sufficiently blurred to allow XY individuals with either super low testosterone or a way of depressing their testosterone fit at least partially in the category too.

I can just about see the point of having an XX category - but no one should ever think that has any impact on the fairness of sport, which is non-existent.

humphrey or maybe people realise that sport was never fair in the first place?

Of course it is hideously unfair for men to compete against women. Just as it is hideously unfair for people who are 6 foot 5 to compete against people who are 4 foot at high jump. It is unfair for anyone to have to compete against Usain Bolt or Phelps.

Sure.... But with this argument that unfairness is inherent.

A person that went through male puberty, especially if that person didn't even go through hormone replacement therapy is about the equivalent of one boxer bringing a baseleball bat with him.

I mean, the sport was already unfair anyway, so what's the issue?

We also can do away with all these little pesky regulations and rules.
Wait, I can't take touch the ball with my hands when playing football? Eh, who cares. It was never fair to begin with anyway, right?

Errol I haven't seen anybody suggest that women be excluded at all. They are perfectly welcome to compete in sport at whatever level they can get to.

It doesn't seem unfair to me to have obvious categories for sport. So separating children from adults, men from women, able from disabled, and then having levels of ability within those categories.

You seem to be objecting to the whole nature of competitive sport, which is fine, but that's a much wider debate than one which accepts the existing categorisation and nature of competitive sport but is debating where certain types of people fit within the categorisations.

You could use that arguement of unfairness in any form of competition or recognition. What about accedemic prizes, scholarships? Some folk are more nurtured than others, some have higher IQ, better access to education.

Women and girls are losing their places on teams to transwomen. They are effectively being excluded.

I read a short story once where people were all made equal. So in ballet good dancers were hobbled with ankle weight. Clever people were fitted with sound makers which would disturb their thoughts. Sounds like Morphenes ideal world.

1horatio At some point people are going to notice that being of afro-caribbean descent confers general advantage in many sports too.

Are white people going to give up on sport wholesale across the country because their aren't enough white athletes at elite level anymore?

The point is that all elite athletes are outliers and complaining about this is pointless.

All that actually matters is whether or not the loss of elite sport role models for any given genetic group impacts that groups involvement in sport at all levels. I don't see that it is obvious that it will, as the overwhelming majority of people play sport do so with no idea or intention of having anything to do with the elite level.

"They are perfectly welcome to compete in sport at whatever level they can get to."

They'd get nowhere fast. Boys and men would always be selected or win ahead of girls and women. Women and girls participation in sport would plummet as it would be asking a huge amount for people to keep participating in an activity where they will always be at the bottom of the pile, have no prospects of having any kind of success or career in that activity. Proper sport is just for men, you women can just tag along if you must.

Plus I just don't want a society where only men are talked about and discussed with respect to sporting achievement. All sports news would be 100% male dominated. Women would disappear from a large section of our culture.

hambo quite the opposite. I think we have to acknowledge that in all walks of life, genetic advantage is determining who can do what. We shouldn't pretend that isn't what is happening in sport too.

Making sport 'fair' is as pointless as making academia 'fair' by saying it shouldn't matter if you aren't good at maths, you still have the right to a professorship in a maths department.

The argument of fairness...
Why have age groups? If a 13 yo can compete againsz an adult he's welcome to try (and potentially die trying...)
What about the paralympics? they're welcome to compete in the olympics, arent' they?
Weight class? Why? Sport is inherently unfair anway.

It's not just the elite athletes this is affecting, Morphene. It's teenagers.

The point is that all elite athletes are outliers and complaining about this is pointless

But this isn't just about the elite.

This is about amateurs as well. The local volleyball team, for example.

Teens that do judo etc.

Or do you think these classes should only be abolished at the highest level?

errol only if the number of teams is 1. In reality you have many leagues at different levels. Being displaced from the olympics doesn't leave you with nowhere to do sport.

I got displaced by men from the first team in my club...so I played for the seconds. When I got knocked out of that by injury then there was the 3rds....you see where I am going with this.

Tumble says it best:
"I'm a firm believer that your rights end where another persons begins. Once your rights start infringing on another persons rights then that is your cue to let you know that you have gone too far and you need to step back."

Some good points morphene.