Oh fucking hell its a parking one..

[Emster58]

Tell me please what fresh hell is this?

Of course there is a backstory but it culminated with dh being threatened today

We live on a new housing estate, we share the entrance to our driveway with two other families....
We have owned the house for 8 years but it has been rented out while we've been abroad. We just recently moved back and discovered that no one now living here is aware that it is in fact a shared entrance but not a shared drive. The parking has been pretty bad and I've had to knock on my ndn1's about 5 times to be able to leave my property as she was parked on it. Interestingly enough this seems to piss my neighbor off
I had been getting some building work done, it took about 6 weeks. I informed my neighbors beforehand and wouldn't allow work after 6pm in order to not put the neighbors out to much.
A truck dented my neighbours (2) fence i got it fixed immediately and was mortified and apologetic.
A delivery truck was blocking the exit once by about 5 inches and my neighbor 1 went batshit at me in the street. It was the same neighbor who was consistently blocking me in and i was only ever nice & polite to her when she was on my property
My ndn2 stood out on the drive with her dh and dm and shouted over to my gardeners that i was a disgrace for having building materials on ndn1's drive.

Still with me?

When the work was finished i took round wine and a card to both neightbours (i also arranged to get their windows washed to clean any builders dust)and thanked them for their patience. In the card i attached a photo copy of the property boundaries for their information and so they would realise that they were in fact parking on my drive and that I wasn't storing property on ndn1's drive that it was in fact my
property.

So that's the back story ... now this is where it starts to get nasty.
Just to make things better we live opposite a school.
Sometimes a random blocks the drive entrance and uses it as a parking space. Last week i lost my rag and put a note on the windscreen with Pratt stick saying RUDE - this isn't a parking space. (Fucking bastarding mumsnet giving me these ideas)..anyway turns out it was ndn2's visitor...I didn't know ...it made no sense, why would he park blocking when the neighbor had 2 spaces on his drive???
Anyway the ndn 2 stopped speaking to us (which really is ok because they were never very nice to us anyway), but unfortunately they added in talking about us loudly so we overhear , stink eyeing us, ignoring us when we greet them....sort of a pack mentality when they have. Visitors...sort of low level intimidation but very unpleasant.
The council put in keep clear signs at our drive entrance yesterday - i requested them about 6 months ago. The ndn2 has gone apoplectic. Now they don't park on their drive at all, they are parking both cars at the entrance to make it difficult for us to leave.
They've now set up toys for their D.C. On the entrance so we would have to ask the D.C. To move them temporarily while we exit.which we did, politely of course...
This has resulted in non dh going mental 'squaring up" pointing in my dh's face calling him names, taunting him, telling him hit me hit me go on...my chest just kept very calm with his hands behind his back....ndn's poor poor ds was crying terribly it was awful begging him to "leave it dad please"....when people walked by the ndn doh cuddled his boy and said to my dh...look what you've done to my poor boy you're scaring him ....
I have no idea how to deal with this situation.

Any help please?

The neighbors are well off and obviously have a position in the community. Why don't you use that? Just get a CCTV in operation sign off Amazon and stick it up. If you see psycho neighbor woman tell her you have a dash cam. If they confront you again, point in the direction of the imaginary camera and say it has sound too. They won't be able to do anything then because they'll be scared you have proof of their crazy behavior.

What arseholes! Sorry you're going through this.

Sulphur

It was interesting to read your post as i think its quite insightful in some ways of course though I don't agree with much of it, but i understand iyswim.

I think how you say i could be being perceived is very close to how our ndn2 see us but their thoughts are probably much more extreme.

In response to your assertion that i haven't attempted to talk i would like to clarify that i have in fact done quite the opposite. On two occasions when I've knocked the door before things deteriorated they have ignored me. I did send the wine, i offered to get their windows washed as i did ndn1 to compensate for any builders dust. I sent them a xmas card. When they were making loud noises about us being unhappy about the D.C. Playing i took the opportunity to reassure their D.C. That there had been a misunderstanding and that was most definitely not the case. I only did that because the adults were shutting me down and it seemed appropriate at the time. Only last week i tried twice to speak to ndn2w, we passed each other and i said hello she scowled at me angrily and walked past. The 2nd time was a couple of days later i thought , I'll give out 1 more try, ( do you know how difficult it is to put yourself out there to people who are behaving so aggressively towards you)? I said hello again and gave a little wave....same response.
WE told the police that we would welcome the opportunity for mediation, either by the police or face to face. The police told us they put it to them and they said 100% categorically that they would enter no discussion with us.
Our ndn2 have been nurturing a burning resentment towards us since we moved in, we know that NOW!!! We didn't know that before , i was very confused re their behaviour??
They think we are turning in their area to piss them off.
They think that we got the keep clear done to piss them off.
They think we are trying to stop the D.C. Playing on the drive.
They are wrong on all counts but quite frankly I don't think they care whether its the truth or not they have an axe to grind and they are just using these as reasons to explain their behaviour.

I would also like to point out that dh's car is not a big flashy expensive 4 x 4 or anything. We had our D.C. Young and always had very reliable family vehicles. Now our eldest is at uni and we only have 1 at home we decided to get a car for fun its referred to as the mid life crisis in this house, its a few years old and not a huge statement iykwim!!!

They sound like thick scum and exactly the sort of people to inconvenience themselves just to put you out.

I understand completely your reluctance to challenge them and your wish to wait and see. But be carful that you don't allow them to block the ROW for too long otherwise you may lose your rights to it which would not be good. I don't know how long a ROW has to be blocked for (without complaint) before a ROW is lost as this isn't my area of the law, but someone else may be able to say. I think ultimately you will have to send an official letter.
In the meantime, you are doing all the right things. I love the suggestion above to let them know/make them think everything is being recorded. That may well stop them, BUT it will also frustrate and anger them further and will reduce to zero any chance you have of overcoming what started as a misunderstanding.

Shall

The thing is, despite the family's outward appearance of good citizens i have very real concerns about the culture of behaviour within their family and how far they are prepared to go.

For instance..

The ndn2 her dh and her DM stood out on the shared driveway and called me names (a disgrace) and shouted at our gardeners. This is when we'd only been here a couple of weeks. I contacted the gardeners to confirm who exactly was being verabal and apparently in was the DM. My DM was brought up on the roughest stink estate ever and would never behave that way. It seems within the culture of their family to be aggressive.
The ndn2 father when he threatened my dh, he did so in front of his extremely distressed son. The weird thing is two minutes later the 3 kids are outside playing and the little boy is like nothing has happened. It's weird to me that he recovered so quickly and that the father never offered any comfort to his son after the incident.
This would indicate to me that the D.C are used to this behaviour.
Also both times the ndn female came at me with her car , her little boy was in the car. This is really worrying to me, who needlessly exposes their D.C. To this kind of behaviour unless they think it's normal?
And how far are they prepared to go?

How long is there shall until a row has been lost?

I don't know the time period Emster, I'll ask at work today.
I think you have to give people (even people like this) a chance to calm down. They will never be normal by the sounds of things, but they may calm down. If you do something legal now re the ROW I think things will go beyond the point of no return and you will have o put up with repeated behaviour of this type until you eventually move.
Your instinct was to wait and see if it calms down, then write a conciliatory letter apologising for any misunderstanding or offence and explaining yourself re the keep clear and the ROW. Only if those don't work do you then move onto formal action.
I think your instinct is right.
A formal dispute will cause problems on a sale but neither should you be held to ransom over that.

Shall

I've been talking to dh and I'm considering - just stopping turning on the shared access.
I think that if we stop trying to turn there they will see it as a 'win' and it may calm down.
It also gives us evidence that we are being reasonable if things do escalate...so if they continue, we can say dh and i took the decision to stop turning on the shared access as it was brought to our attention that it was irritating our ndn so we felt for good community relations etc.

However dh is concerned that as they are bullies it will only embolden them and their behaviour may become worse (if possible).
Also it leaves us with the long term implications of the ROW.

For everyone taking the time out of their day to commiserate and give me advice. It really is a great source of support for me at a challenging time.

Really it's desperately sad that we cant all just get along, what with all of the really important things going on in the world at the moment

Just checking in to make sure you're alright. They're still utter wankers though I see. I was hoping they'd come to their senses by now

Right, I've asked. If it's been formally granted in a Deed (which I would assume it has in a new build/modern property) then a ROW can never be lost, until it is formally released (also by way of a Deed).

The advice at this end is that if you sell, you would have to disclose that you are not exercising the right of way and that there is a potential dispute over it. So you are better off making this formal and asserting the right of way. A purchaser would prefer this - they buy a property where there has been a dispute but it's been resolved, as opposed to buying a property where a dispute is brewing and unresolved. This advice is from a conveyancer.

If you were a client I would advise you to follow the instinct you have already expressed, and which I agreed with in my last post. Wait a bit, then write a conciliatory and apologetic letter explaining everything. Wait a bit more. If the behaviour doesn't improve, go to a solicitor (using your legal cover under your household insurance which virtually all policies have). I think you might have to put your insurer on notice now of a potential dispute.

Make sure you are recording everything: a daily diary (eg iPhone Notes), dash cam recordings, photographs of the ROW being blocked every day by cars, and contemporaneous notes of any confrontations/other ROW blocking that you can't record/photograph for whatever reason (eg you shouldn't photograph children).

Of course, if the behaviour as it is now does not let up at all then you might have to rethink this and ditch the wait and see part of it.

Asserting the ROW won't stop stupid and aggressive behaviour like DM ranting at your gardener.

If the harassment continues, then you need to follow this up with the police, but also try to get some evidence of it (because they'll probably make counter allegations, as they have already done). Google PIN (Police Information Notice). Because the police guidance is that Protection from Harrassment Act complaints have to be prioritised, the police are inundated with low level stalking/harassment complaints. They have developed an informal procedure for dealing with these - they visit the offender, inform them of the complaint, explain the provisions of the Act and that if the allegation is true and the behaviour continues then they will be committing an offence and may be arrested. They then hand the offender a piece of paper (the PIN) which records all of this. The PIN is then entered on the national and local police data bases, where it stays for a year.

I often post on these forums about PINs. As great as they are for someone like you, they are also open to extreme abuse (for instance in domestic disputes where one party can make up allegations and then jump up and down when they are next in court saying "look, the police served a PIN" - even though the PIN procedure involves no investigations or findings of wrongdoing like, for instance, a caution does - a Home Affairs Select Committee has investigated this and made certain recommendations) - but that is another story. For you a PIN would be a great idea. Once it's served, if the behaviour carries on the CPS may well prosecute.

Ermster

Time for me to eat a bit of humble pie then. It's clear from your last post you have tried to make contact. I apologise if any of the stuff I've said has seemed in any way offensive. Only you can know the nitty-gritty of this situation of course, and we are getting a report with your bias, but they do sound like they've got a major grudge. I would want to get to the bottom of it.

I understand that they just will not entertain you speaking to them face to face, so a very carefully worded letter would be the way I'd chose now. They will read it, I'm sure. Not official, nothing to do with boundaries, hand written. Just express your regret at the way things are and explain as best you can why you put the note on the car that day and you didn't mean any offence to them or their visitor. Tell them you've asked for the keep clear six months ago and why. Let them know that you didn't mean to offend them by sending the card with the map in it. You be the judge of what to write. I know it might sound like you're submitting but if they are beguiled they might just see what total idiots they've been, and clam the heck down. If you keep it on a personal level and say nothing about legal stuff or police, you'll do no harm.

As far as the boundary issue goes, it's my opinion that the deeds are the deeds, tacit acceptance of their parking habits means nothing. They've had their own way and got used to it by the sounds of your previous tenants' habits.

They can't win anything here, the law will always be against them being unreasonable, so console yourself with that and remain calm and reasonable yourself.

Thank you very much shall

Your advice is excellent and extremely helpful.
I have to be honest with you i am balking at the idea of sending an apologetic letter though

I am keeping a diary and will take photos everyday.
Unfortunately we do not have protection on home insurance currently...again this is a big problem...dh checked yesterday when you mentioned it before. As we've just returned from abroad some things have been inadvertently overlooked

I have so much sympathy for you. Leave your car over the entrance on the road. Get a skip. It sounds like the relationship has really really disintegrated. Reverse over the kids toys.
They need to apologise. I don't know what to suggest. Just sympathy xxx

Don't worry sulphur i appreciate your post, it actually gave me some insight into how my ndn's probably perceive me.

I don't post on here to get realms of poor you although they are very much welcome i want different perspectives and to challenge my own way of thinking. I am trying to understand it all from my ndn point of view and acknowledge where I could have done better. I can always count on Mumsnet to serve me my arse on a plate if i deserve it...and they have occasionally

In this circumstance i am almost thinking now...fuck it ...they can have the ROW. If it doesn't run out etc then it wont effect our future house sale.
As soon as i send them a letter either way we are officially in dispute.

The problem is...they don't want conciliatory behaviour, they may see any approach from us this far out as weakness on our part.

We have a boundary with some idiots. They work by doing what they want and then claiming everyone else is in the wrong. And you know, - it works a lot of the time. Their behaviour is beyond shameless, yet they find the money to send the kids to private schools - one was chucked out of a minor public school - so it is not council estates. There is a backstory longer than a whole load of arms, so I won't bore you.

Someone threatening lands on our doorstep every time we cut your hedge. We have been told we need their permission to walk on their land. We consulted a solicitor, and we are obliged by the deeds and covenants to maintain our boundaries, and they are obliged to let us. The only notice that we have to give is to allow someone to move their garden furniture and give us access etc and this does not apply. We also took advice from another neighbour who had a difficult court case, which was to indulge their ego and treat them like the Important Land Owners they think they are without giving anything away.
So, we call them (number withheld) once a year and 'let them know' that we will be cutting the hedge in the next couple of weeks, weather permitting. It has worked. Their vanity is saved and we are not asking 'permission'.
The ones with the court case were forced into it. They had absolutely perfect text book case and the idiots had 3 made up assertions to support their claim that a fence had been moved. This went all the way through the court system and a barrister was needed. I reckon it cost about 20K, of which they got back around 10Kin costs. However, they sold their house to a solicitor, who was very happy that there was a very undisputable unappealable county court decision on exactly where the boundary was (that they had not paid for), so it did not do any harm when selling.

FWIW, your dh is probably going in the right direction. Pull back and ignore them. You need to have advice on your deeds and ROW so that you do not do anything to compromise that. I suppose if the worst comes to the worst, you could arrange your own access point (and put a fence up along the middle of the drive ) - DN1 looks stuffed.

I wouldn't take any notice of the bollocks upthread about being seen as snobs - that is just an excuse to bully.

we cut our* hedge, not yours lol

I've followed this thread Emster and I feel for you.

You sound concilitory and reasonable and it is always a shock when you are reasonable and friendly and try to make amends (as per your post of 07.37). That is the way I would have gone too. And it is puzzling and awful when any moves to make things better are thrown back in your face. (This has happened to me with someone - olive branch offered then thrown back in my face with huge vitriol).

Sadly, there are people in life with huge chips on their shoulders (I think this is your NDNs. They probably think you are hoity toity or something daft like that). I think you have to accept you will get nowhere with trying to make friendly peace. I would work hard to doing absolutely nothing to inflame them whilst protecting yourself as much as you can. I wish you luck.

I too think sulphur's post gave some useful insight into how they may be thinking.

I also think Sulphur makes some valid points.

If I refer back to the original diagram it does seem to show that you are reversing on their allocated area. As you were the one who reminded them of these boundaries then I think you should also respect them; you have said that it is possible, but less easy, for you to drive in and out of your property without doing it. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

Neighbour disputes are horrible and decent people rarely end up as winners. I have experience of this. Don't risk your mental health and happiness over this. Stop reversing if that is what is annoying them, don't engage with them and try not to let them bother you. Easier said than done I know.

Good luck.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your stories and opinions.

Just to point out...the area i reverse on in jointly owned by the 3 properties and not by them alone..i don't ever drive on to their property. I am using the shared access in the way it was designed for - for the ease & convenience for all properties.

I don't believe that the neighbours original complaint with us was about our reversing but i suppose at this point it is a way for them to exercise their rights and make our life a little more difficult by blocking our right of way access.

DH and i have reached the decision that we won't turn their anymore and see how we progress for then on out.

Also our neighbours deliveries and visitors use the joint access we provide them for ease of entering and exiting regularly, if we parked at the edge of our boundaries it would make life very difficult for them in return. We are just not prepared to do anything to make it worse for anyone.

i appreciate you dont want to stir them up anymore-but fear these people will just move up a gear

today is the shared access tomorow something else

just be prepared to get legal advice and like others said u want this formally sorted out othewise when u move it will be very hard to sell