School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

Yep, youarenotkiddingme, a social skills/nurture group. Not a 'reward' for good behaviour and any parent who tells their dc it is, or doesn't explain it isn't, is talking out their arse.

Out of curiosity - how do Teachers decide if a child's 'naughty' behaviour is caused by 'dysfunction' or a SN that is yet to be diagnosed?

Dd has several reasonable adjustments made in school as a result of her disability and because of the direction from her statement of SEN. When the adjustments were noticed by her peers and commented upon in secondary dd found it really upsetting because she just wants to fade into the background.
When I contacted her form tutor he implied that it was to be expected that her peers would feel aggrieved by what they saw as preferential treatment I advised that if young people had got to the age of 13 without developing an awareness of differing needs and empathy for others then they had been failed by their parents and the primary schools and so the school as a whole and he personally should be addressing this instead of leaving my dd and others like her to deal with yet another burden when they were already dealing with far more than enough.
It strikes me reading this thread that some people make it to adulthood without developing the awareness or empathy too

TatterdemalionAspie that's my next move. The teacher from his Specialist secondary school is going in to primary v soon and I've agreed to hold off removing until I've got that outcome. The secondary teacher wants to try and get my "naughty child" feeling less fearful of teaching staff to make his transition into Secondary easier/possible.

I had my "naughty child" off for 3 days due to self-harm about school. When I returned him, did the teacher ask how he was? No, he launched into a rant about the adjustments I'd asked for had been done but weren't necessary according to another professional involved with my "naughty child". 2/3 of the adjustments were directly taken from said professional's report as recommendations for my "naughty child." but the teacher hadn't seen that report due to internal communications within school.

Would you support your DS if he demanded a ride on the wheelchair that a disabled classmate is rewarded with for their inability to walk? Just tell him to mind his own behaviour rather than the 4 "naughty" kids'.

Perhaps you should remind your child that these children probably aren't naughty but for whatever reason (ADHD, FAS, poor attachment etc.) find it more difficult to follow classroom rules. If you look at the statistics of children who are excluded from school it's made up predominantly of children with SN and those in foster care or who have had SS involvement. Personally I don't think a tea party once a week makes up for any of these experiences.

I also think children who find academic work should be rewarded if they make a big effort even if they don't achieve at the same level as other children who effortless do well (and I say this as somehow who effortless did well and behaved easily).

if young people had got to the age of 13 without developing an awareness of differing needs and empathy for others then they had been failed by their parents and the primary schools

Exactly this. I would take this as an opportunity to explain to my child about differences and why some people may find things challenging that they do without thinking. What I absolutely would not do is encourage them to selfishly begrudge these children a small reward for putting effort into improving themselves.

I have to say though you'd expect the dc to have stopped the reporting back at age 8 wouldn't you? Mine would have commented in early primary on who were the naughty children but by 8 they've generally got less rigid ideas and more understanding and empathy (particularly if the school is good at fostering this ethos) so would advise OP to stop showing an interest and encouraging her child's interest in the four "naughty" dc as that is probably extending the reporting back stage. "I only want to hear about you " should nip it in the bud.

Yep, youarenotkiddingme, a social skills/nurture group.
Those kind of set ups make perfect sense. Calm envinronments that positively reinforce the progress those children have made. I love leading those groups and the kids get so much from them.

It would make more sense if it wasn't presented as a reward to the rest of the class (which is what it sounds like in the OP e.g. 2 other students can go if they get smileys but they have to do more to get the smileys).

I've said all the way through this thread that support should be in place for those who need it, including rewards. It should be distinct / in addition to whole class things.

Though please, I'd love it if we could just accept that some kids who are badly behaved do not have SEN needs. Saying a child is badly behaved isnt some value judgement on the kid. Some of my favorite children I've ever taught were badly behaved children. Lovely kids with awful behavior. They thank you at the end when you help get them into college.

Plan using a range of methods, professional training, expertise and experience; support from other key professionals trained to deal with behaviour. Initially the class teacher would be observing and recording. We use a plan which looks at what has happened just before the child's behaviour, what happens during, what happens just after. This is all noted over a period of time to look for patterns and triggers. From this we use our professional expertise to write a plan to support the child. All of the above would be shared with parents. The plan will be implemented for a period of time and the process repeated. If the strategies put in place don't change the child's behaviour then additional professional help may be sought. Other factors would be considered, school, home, friends, medical. If there is a clear factor affecting behaviour, say a bereavement then support would be appropriate to that. Often it is where there is no apparent background reason that takes more time to sort out. It maybe the there is something underlying to find out, it maybe SEN.
Changing a child's behaviour is a long and complex process, especially when a child is in a large class. The behaviour doesn't just affect this one child it changes the behaviour of others too. A similar process would need to be in place for this child and others. I have taught in classes where the behavioural plan for one child works against the behavioural plan for another. Of course this would need to be planned for and changes made.
It can be really tough to deal with and continue to ensure quality teaching and learning for all. It takes time and lots of emotional energy.

Eolian. Thanjs for answering my question. I do agree with you, rewards work really well for those children with additional needs and the children who don't have additional needs don't need bribing to sit still, etc. That's common sense, and I wouldn't want my child necessarily being rewarded for doing something that comes easy to him and that I would expect him to do anyway.
You are also right that the difference is when the child who doesn't need bribing sees the child who does, seem to have bad behaviour getting treats. There must be another way so as the child who needs the treats isn't seen getting it by the child who doesn't. It just instills a sense of unfairness in them.
In the case of the child who scratched my child's face getting the golden award at the end of the week, it was presented in assembly in front of everyone and my child saw that he was getting rewarded for scratching his face. That made him think the teachers didn't like him. The unfairness of it all has never left him.

Bad or challenging behaviour is also a Need, MaisyPops. One which should be addressed, as indeed you say you have. It doesn't need a label or a formal diagnosis to require pastoral input in the form of a social skills/nurture/lunchtime'tea party'.

Saucery
I know. Just trying to flag up that not all bad behaviour is due to SEND (which lots of posters seem to do).
Ive watched so many parents struggle to navigate the SEND process that when i hear peopel going on like everything must be some additional need it makes me irritated.
There's lots that can be done to support children and it requires tact and professional knowlwdge/skill. As you saod, some kids may need the nurture tea party. I would say they deserve and need it as a separate thing to telling the whole class "2 of you can join the tea party if youre good".
Sometimes well intentioned behaviour strategies can have unintended consequences/perceptions.

Insanity I'm memorising that speech for if I should ever need it!

My ds chooses to wear ear defenders. Once when putting them on another student made a comment. Neither ds nor the lad had heard his key worker approaching. Ds said he heard her shout through them! Neither the boy or another student had commented since!

Thanks You, that would be how you would do it and that would seem to be a very professional approach. However, my experience was a very unprofessional approach based on ignorance and assumptions and I believe an inexperienced, young teaching team. The immediate assumptions made were that I provided a dysfunctional environment - none based in fact or any knowledge or information. The 'power' wielded over our lives by these teachers was wide-reaching and to an extent I think they enjoyed it. The medical professionals were pretty shocked by how we were being viewed by the educational ones. The medical professionals spent time in my home and saw that it didn't meet the 'lurid' descriptions given by the teachers, who had never been in my home.

It appears my family's experience is not an isolated one as it was so similar to ilike's post upthread.

Plan, you're completely right when you speak of social isolation as a result of this.

I went from a woman who ran a playgroup, organised community events, had huge parties twice a year for Mayday and bonfire night and was generally well regarded and fun to a social parriah, I had a few close friends that stuck around but the life I knew dropped away very rapidly when DD'S problems became apparent.

I became depressed and angry, I railled against the world for a good year and found myself in a position where I was no longer the open friendly, unguarded person I used to be.

We moved in the end and life is much better now, we're getting there with DD who's currently attending a support unit with a view to a slow transistion back to mainstream (it may be that mainstream is ultimately not for her but for her sake I want to give it a try, we're very well supported now).

Reading threads like this though just gives me the fear about the prospect of mainstream as I know I will have to throw myself back into the gamut of judgement and disapproval from other parents.

And I know my posts have been very much about me but I think people should know when they make statements about children like my daughter that it's not harmless, it hurts people who are already coping with adverse circumstances.

Finally, my son, who is extremely well behaved at school and motivated with his work is rewarded by the school for his efforts. He also understands that there are children like his sister who require a different approach, and that it's not to his detriment, it's to everyone's benefit.

If only some parents could have the same level of awareness as a ten year-old.

The naughty kids from my own schooldays are doing fine now. I was a good, quiet, well behaved child. I am now completely fucked up, mentally unwell and longterm unemployed, It's likely I am on the ASD spectrum, but there were such high expectations of me no-one realised how much effort it took. Plus no-one seems to realise that quiet kids can have serious problems at home, not to mention the bullying from the naughty kids that they are expected to put up with.

Sorry but I've seen so many of these threads and I'm tired of the assumptions, and feel for children like I was, who will suffer all their lives without anyone giving them a break, simply because they are "good".

Plan using a range of methods, professional training, expertise and experience; support from other key professionals trained to deal with behaviour. Initially the class teacher would be observing and recording. We use a plan which looks at what has happened just before the child's behaviour, what happens during, what happens just after. This is all noted over a period of time to look for patterns and triggers. From this we use our professional expertise to write a plan to support the child. All of the above would be shared with parents. The plan will be implemented for a period of time and the process repeated. If the strategies put in place don't change the child's behaviour then additional professional help may be sought. Other factors would be considered, school, home, friends, medical. If there is a clear factor affecting behaviour, say a bereavement then support would be appropriate to that. Often it is where there is no apparent background reason that takes more time to sort out. It maybe the there is something underlying to find out, it maybe SEN.

Can you PM me your address please? I want to move there...

I experienced the same as you Plan, DD was at two schools before we moved and the focus was always on our parenting, it was never suggested that DD had addition needs, just that we were in some way terribly remiss as parents. I remeber meetings when I was buring with shame because I was almost convinced in the end I was doing something wrong as so many teaching professionals were convinced it was the case.

In the case of the first school, after we left the chair of the board of governers contacted me because he was so horrified at our treatment and the dismissive nature of the school that he wanted to know what they could do better in future (he resigned from the governors in the end as his concerns were also dismissed).

So it does happen, and I suspect it happens rather a lot.

That's a shame Plan. One of the first things I consider is ' is the school environment appropriate?. Not in the sense of should that child remain in a school but are we providing an appropriate environment to support this child or can we make tiny tweaks to improve it. Sometimes it isn't possible, sometimes it is. When I was in the classroom I always started with us as a school, learning from a very early experience when a new parent said her child would repeatedly run from her previous school. This was a three year old! Looking at the notes and work the child brought with her I had been given many many work sheets about 'old and new' - telephones, cars, toys for this THREE year old to colour and complete. I remember calming down this terrified and anxious mum and telling her although risk assessments around supervision and environment would be put in place to keep the child safe, I didn't think she would be running from our school. I said to her mum if I was her daughter at three years old faced with so many unsuitable work sheets to fill in I would have run out of school too. Outdoor learning, arts and good play ensured this child didn't ever run again!

Actually the classmate I know who is doing most badly as an adult, was a quiet girl with a strange family. She is now housebound with severe mental illness. She had no extra support at school, always an under the radar kid.
My bfs friend was a very naughty boy. Left school with no qualifications. He became a very well paid salesman and quickly rose in management.

So many assumptions on this thread.

Sorry but I've seen so many of these threads and I'm tired of the assumptions, and feel for children like I was, who will suffer all their lives without anyone giving them a break, simply because they are "good".

I was a 'good', academically high achieving child who had an, at times, torrid home life. I was never rewarded at school. Good behaviour and exceptional grades were simply expected of me.

Missing out on a 'tea party' or two (and I agree with PP, who say that this is an intervention group being called something else) would have made fuck all difference to who I am as an adult.

Genuine question... would it have made a difference to you?

I would just like to weigh in with my experiences with my two foster children. In our, very select, personal experience, offering rewards to 'naughty' children, when their behaviour is still often poor, doesn't always work.

My youngest came to me in Reception. He wouldn't do what he was told at school but most of the time it was free play so he coped ok because he was mainly doing what he wanted anyway.

In Year 1 he had a horrendous year. The trouble was, the teacher didn't tell us how bad his behaviour was getting until about the February so we assumed he was managing quite well and his behaviour was improving; as it was at home. But actually he was running riot at school. It pretty much boiled down to the fact that his teacher couldn't get him to do work so he didn't do the work. She gave him an inch and he took a mile. He was climbing on tables, chucking chairs, shouting at adults, hurting children, all sorts. They tried changing his class for the last half term and that had no effect. They couldn't get him to do what they wanted so he just did his own thing. Yet at the same time he was bringing home prizes and things - he once won a competition for best picture which was simply scribble (and we did lots of crafty things at home so he was capable of more if he'd tried). I'm sure other children's must have been far better but I bet the teacher couldn't face a tantrum from him. Which I do understand but by giving in to him all the time he was getting worse and worse.

At home he was completely different. He soon learned that chucking stuff around etc didn't give him his own way - he still wasn't allowed to do whatever it was he'd been told he couldn't do, so the tantrums soon stopped. He was still no angel but we didn't expect that, he'd obviously been through a lot of trauma, but he became manageable. We had clear expectations and consequences and we did use reward charts in the first year or so. At school he had a reward chart but he didn't care whether he got the stickers on there or not. Basically he didn't respect the teacher and didn't feel that they were in charge.

He did really well in Year 2, which was at a new school. Suddenly he wanted to do well for his teacher. My biggest issue then was the school was suddenly expecting him to meet the normal Year 2 academic targets when he'd come to me at the end of Reception knowing nothing so I didn't expect him to have caught up yet, and I wasn't bothered that he hadn't - I just wanted him to behave in school! And, with a couple of minor blips, he did. What really helped him was having a strong teacher who gave clear expectations and consequences. He's the kind of child who can't take being praised constantly with no consequence for bad behaviour, because he will push and push at the boundaries. But if he knows the boundaries are secure and firm he will (usually!) stick to them.

What I found a bit difficult to deal with was that for one misdemeanour he'd had, which by then was out of character for him, he wasn't allowed the end of year treat. I thought it a little harsh but he understood what he'd done and exactly why he couldn't have the treat so fair enough. But his brother, in Year 3, was allowed the treat. Yet his brother's teacher had had to speak to me most days for a couple of weeks about his behaviour! So that was difficult to explain - why his brother could still have the treat even though his behaviour had been much worse! That was really due to the teacher being lovely, but a bit soft, and letting him have it anyway. Whereas the younger one's teacher was holding him to the standards of the rest of the class, which I was pleased about really because it showed how far he had come - if he had stayed at the old school I honestly think he would have been excluded by now.

He's now in Year 3 and his class teacher has no real problems with him. Yes he's bossy and opinionated and he fidgets too much and still hasn't caught up academically, but he manages at school behaviour wise and doesn't need any special reward system other than what the school uses as a whole school system, so I call that a real success!

I honestly think that if he was allowed to be naughty but still get treats his behaviour would just keep escalating. It might work for some children but it doesn't work for him. He needs to know clear rules and he needs to know he can't break them.

BBC I'm so sorry you had an awful time at school and have been left with the long term effects of this. My dd has ASD, has never misbehaved in her life and is high achieving (predicted top grade GCSEs across the board) Dd has TA support for the majority of each and every school day and has had since she entered nursery at age three,I only hope that the support I have fought for has ameliorated the damage that school does to young people like her and you and she leaves unscathed enough to have some sort of positive future. I am very aware and very vocal that school will never ever come first at the expense of her mental health.