School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

I'm sure you are right brasty. I wouldn't like to assume this is the case everywhere but DH and I work for people centered forward thinking companies. I'd like to think inclusion and equality are the norm.

Only if it is relatively easy. Tech firms tend to be fairly good at including people with poor social skills or some form of autism.
But I have also worked with paid advocates supporting autistic people in the workplace, who say it is hugely difficult to get employers to take any advice about inclusion on board. On top of that a lot of the support to employers and employees around disability inclusion has been cut.
Remember the employers who employ most people are small employers. You get lucky sometimes and find employers with personal experience of disability who genuinely believe in inclusion, but few do.

The mothers would probably describe him as weird etc even if they were explicitly told that he had a sn. I'm sure some people use those words to describe my son who is very obviously disabled.

Just to weave into previous posts:

2 kids - 2 different families - both pupils at the same school, say Yr1 Age 6 boys, both exhibiting equally 'naughty' and 'challenging behaviour in school, both awaiting ASD assessments and diagnoses that they will both eventually be given. Family 1 - locally established family, own house, outwardly community-involved. Family 2 - single parent, council house, not much known locally about the family. How differently do you think these families will be viewed? Will the causes of each dc's behaviour be viewed differently by teachers? Which child's family might be more likely to be 'labelled' as dysfunctional and/or the cause of the 'naughty' behaviour?

So many people on here have said "they don't have sen" or "they haven't had difficult childhood" how do you know that for a fact??
Only 2 parents in dds age 8s class know that she isn't my birth child.
That she has ptsd from her first 3 years of life. That she has to see someone from the child mental health team 3 times a week. She looks normal, can speak normally.
You can't tell that she had the emotional age of a toddler.
The other parents in my dds class probably thing she's an awful naughty child that attacks her own mother everyday on the way to school (anxiety) at school she is treated therapeutically. She gets to go horse riding, gardening daily, movement breaks, outdoor for the whole afternoon 1 day a week, cooking/baking and various animal related grooming/feeding. In fact she doesn't do much sit down learning at all. It could be years til she recovers (if ever) and she is falling further and further behind.
Other children are jealous she gets to do all these things but wouldn't she rather have not been severely neglected for years, starved, witnesses horrific things. She has no friends. She has nightmares every night.
Which life would your child choose out of the two?

But she looks normal and the other kids are jealous...

pleasecomesoonspring
What's in place for your DC is absolutely what your DC needs.Zero issue. And its brilliant that everything is in place to meet her needs.

I doubt your DCs class have been told that they can join your DC's support as a reward (I know sometimes DCs can have a friebd come with. Thats different).

What lots of people (me included) are taking an issue with is when participation in the support interventions which some kids need becomes blurred with class rewards so the class if given the impression of unfairness. Poorly managed support and interventions can be unhelpful.

please your dd's circumstances is exactly why parents shouldn't be privvy to personal information about other children's needs. Two of my children have ASD and so have /have had all manner of adjustments made at school.I'm sure some parent's were/are puzzled as dd is neither challenging nor behind academically (which is why people assume a child has TA support IME) but it is none of their business to know the reasons why. I would always presume that if there were adjustments in place then there is a very good reason why (because schools and LAs don't exactly have the resources available to throw them about unnecessarily) and would encourage my child to think the same and show compassion and understanding. I did this even before having children with their own needs because surely it is better tobe grateful that your child doesn't need the extras rather than being envious of others that do?

2 kids - 2 different families - both pupils at the same school, say Yr1 Age 6 boys, both exhibiting equally 'naughty' and 'challenging behaviour in school, both awaiting ASD assessments and diagnoses that they will both eventually be given. Family 1 - locally established family, own house, outwardly community-involved. Family 2 - single parent, council house, not much known locally about the family. How differently do you think these families will be viewed? Will the causes of each dc's behaviour be viewed differently by teachers? Which child's family might be more likely to be 'labelled' as dysfunctional and/or the cause of the 'naughty' behaviour

What's the betting that one of those kids is called Jayden or Kyle?

I agree with ThatsWotSheSaid. These children have behavioural issues for a reason and can often come from abusive, neglectful or impoverished homes. Often times they will never 'catch up' academically or socially and are affected for the rest of their lives perpetuating a negative cycle. If these children are afforded these supposed 'luxuries' it may make other children feel jealous but our job as adults is to teach them about equity and compassion for others. There will always be difficult or even annoying people in life and if we prepare children to handle these situations the better off in the long run they will be.

Plan ds and the other most challenging child in the school were child A and child B in infants. Ds had two parents and a stable home life and a diagnosis. J had a single mother and no diagnosis (because ASD diagnosis relies to some extent on a parent having some understanding of child development and able to notice and articulate differences).Ds and J were vilified in school and by parents on the playground ds's diagnosis didn't make much difference tbh.
It did though when he went to an ASD unt and later a specialist school.J finally got a diagnosis at 15,he had ASD at 5 just like ds even undiagnosed.It was too late by then he'd done exclusions and PRU and was into drugs and crime by then. I've not seen him for a while so I imagine he's back in Young Offender's again

Last the school are not allowed to divulge confidential medical information to anyone who thinks they have a right to know, it is the law under the data protection act. If the school gave out that information without specific permission then it would be classed as gross misconduct and is a sackable offence, It may also be in breach of the safeguarding regulations.

Time to bow out of this thread now I think. I have upset myself a bit. I'd like to think I can help people understand about ASD and ADHD, just a bit more, I'm no expert but still.

Suffice to say that I think some people could learn from the phrase...don't judge anyone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

Of course by then you will be a mile away from them...and you'll have their shoes...

brasty so if you go into work tomorrow and a colleague pushes you off your chair you would think that was OK and so would your boss? No you wouldn't and your boss wouldn't. Certain accommodations can and should be made but everyone has a right to be safe in the workplace and I don't see why children should be entitled to anything less.

I think people are being unfair to an awful lot of children with SEN as in my experience they aren't the kids I am talking about. The two ringleaders in my daughter's torture still live locally, both have kids, jobs and are married. They don't appear to be assaulting people at work, one works in a local restaurant and I don't think they would stand for it. Interestingly when they all went to the same grammar school they quickly found out their behaviour would not be tolerated and it stopped.

The little boy who was subject of an unprovoked attack and was then asked if he had been annoying them finally lost his rag and punched one of the bullies in the face. Now violence isn't something I ever recommend but I have to admit it worked. His last year at the school he had no problems and I can't help thinking that if the gang of boys who were hurting him had genuine problems controlling their behaviour then one of them getting a punch on the nose wouldn't have cured all of them.

There IS no sidestream, so MS is everyone. It's their school too and they have just as much right to an appropriate education as any other child there and all the other children have a right to be safe, to not feel threatened and to be able to have an appropriate education. It goes both ways, although as I said above I don't think the worst culprits are the children with SEN they are children who haven't learned how to behave and enjoy hurting others. The ones I know grew out of it, unfortunately some of their victims still carry the scars.

Coloursthatwere my joy, I'm sorry you are upset. My kids went to school with kids with ADHD and ASD and although those kids needed additional support I don't remember them ever being deliberately nasty or deliberately hurting anyone. Don't feel they have to carry the can for the kids who like doing that sort of thing.

It must be such a shock when they go out into the work place and discover that they aren't going to get the special treatment they have got used to The idea behind behaviour plans is to provide all children with access to education so that they can achieve whatever they're capable of so that they stand some chance of getting a job later. At good schools, differentiated behaviour plans don;t treat the children like special snowflakes, they have a consistent approach which maximises the chances of a child learning as well as they can.

I really despair at how people cannot see this - or is it that most schools and teachers are so rubbish they aren;t doing this? Surely our school can't be so very special.

As for well behaved children consistently being overlooked in my (very limited and therefore not persuasive experience according to Maisypops ) experience.

My very limited etc etc experience is that the "good" kids are always believed over the "naughty" kids which is partly what puts kids with SEN ate more risk of bullying than those without. They get 95% of the academic success (regardless of their underlying ability) and 95% of the "golden certificates" across the year.

BTW I'm not commenting on secondary school because unless it's a very peculiar secondary school I doubt OP's child is in secondary.

I accept that children with SEN are difficult to deal with in a class of 30 at secondary (though when DS goes with his budget I assume they'll manage some extra support ) but I presume Maisy you're not suggested that the education system doesn;t try? Or are you suggesting that children with SEN shouldn't be allowed in mainstream schooling. I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting?

It's why I get really frustrated at how quickly people on MN jump straight to sen diagnosis and teachers are useless. - but mostly it's the people who do not have children with SEN that are calling into the question OP's teacher not those of us who have children with SEN. They don't believe that teachers judgement that this is the appropriate management for the children in question. They believe they know better, because their child once didn't get a golden certificate or because they were once bullied by someone who might (or might not have had SEN) or because they think just constantly telling them off for not behaving "normally" would work better.

Kewcumber in my experience teachers, and I am talking about primary schools as I found senior schools were much better at dealing with it, bend over backwards to excuse the naughty kids as long as it doesn't affect them. So in my example no teacher was affected by the quiet little boy being attacked so the immediate response was, "Were you annoying them." I was not involved, an independent adult who volunteered at school and I reported what had happened but that was still the response.

But again I don't believe these children have any SEN and two of them are from families I know and they don't have a deprived or neglected background but they do both have parents who believe they can do no wrong. Both are now at the local grammar school and from what I hear their behaviour is good so again I think the fact that the school excused their behaviour as did their parents was a big part of it. There were 2 children with SEN in the class and one had a fulltime TA and those kids weren't nasty. I think it is sad that it is always blamed on SEN as SEN then becomes quite a bad label to have.

Kewcumber
What i was saying is that schools often do try on very limited funds. Ive watched parents struggle to get reports in and access help. We've sent kids for referals and had it back that children with clear SEMH needs were not 'bad enough' to get help from the authority and agencies. My school (like many others) is actually running a full send base with mentors, counsellors, time out rooms etc. But doing all that means lower funding elsewhere in school and fewer TAs to go into class so only children with funding attached and allocated hours get lesson support. Schools in my area are about to lose £500-1000 per student next year too. My heart absolutely goes out to people who have kids with additional needs because I work in the system and its crap to navivate at times. But it doesnt mean the people in the system are rubbish at their job, hate children and dont care.

I just hate it when I get on here and some people just decide that they are expert enough to criticise an entire profession and call us things like fuckwits because of their personal experience (and on this thread its people who have and dont havr children with additional needs). We cant win. We try to include children and meet their needs and we get some parents telling us every badly behaved child has a hidden special need and we have others telling us that we'rr crap at our job because we let little timmy go to time out rather than discipline him in front of the class.

Last in answer to your question, the other kids didn't need to know any of DS' disabilities, the example referred to earlier was blatantly obvious for all to see because everyone the school bell went off DS would either jump out of his skin and hit the deck running or he would freeze, put his hands over his ears and shake from head to foot (in obvious distress) or he would lash out at the closest person to him each of these were an involuntary reaction to the sudden loud noise that literally hurt his ears, so some bright spark sussed out that they could get the same reaction if they screamed in his ear, he would be told off and there would be consequences if he involuntarily lashed out or ran away, the usual consequence for it was losing his next playtime and 5 or 10 minutes of golden time on a Friday afternoon, and the kids very quickly learnt that if he was asked if he hit someone the answer would be yes, however he was unable to say what that someone had done to him.

Kewcumber in secondary dd has a TA with her for the majority of lessons, she has access to the SEN base whenever she wants it (rarely tbf as it's busy and noisy so she prefers the library) she leaves early for lunch each day because she doesn't cope with queuing, she is never kept behind in any lesson regardless as to whether the whole class is and can leave early if she is anxious. She never get strikes and won't ever get a detention as she wouldn't cope and it would trigger her refusal. Timetable and lessons are adapted to her needs as required so she doesn't do PE or Biology at present,at one time she didn't do History either. Homework is done in schoolwith her TA's to ensure she gets a break when she comes home. She is in groups that are carefully chosen,her teachers are also considered carefully too as a teacher can make or break her ability to learn. IME the children that have funding and EHCP's /statement (as dd's still hasn't been transferred) fare better than those with needs and no funding not least because a parent has the power to push to get the statement/EHCP met .

enterthedragon, your poor son. That must be so hard to cope with even without people being spiteful.

1nsanityscatching Your DCs school sounds like mine.
Theres often so many kids using the SEN base for different reasons and multiple curriculum offers that students accept it as part of being in school. It works so well when ran well (& much better in my opinion than some of the set ups ive seen on this thread... which ive been shouted down for saying dont sound effective)

user00000 then you would lose your bet, Family 2 - his name is James and you would no doubt lose more if you kept gambling on what you believe is the 'life' and 'circumstances' of all single parents in council houses. But you illustrate my point very well.

Maisy it's working now for dd and I'm really happy about that.There have been problems but they have been addressed and school and home work together to support dd. She is predicted A and A* equivalent across the board and remains on target so it must be working.
At dd's school there are so many reasons why a child might not be accessing the exact same timetable as the rest of their form as there are programmes for gifted children, sports programmes,SEN programmes, young scientist programmes,language programmes,music lessons etc.It's nice in a way as dd is more anonymous and it's less of a big deal when she is missing because chances are others will have been missing or will be missing later the same day

Well it seems to me that a lot of children are being failed, SEN and Non SEN, and a lot more support and funding is needed. I don't know how teachers are meant to cope with SEN inclusion, different abilities and plain old bad behaviour in such large classes as we currently have.

I do understand that the law as currently interpreted is very strict in favour of maintaining confidentiality. I was saying that I didn't agree with this blanket policy and that I felt exceptions ought to be made where there was a significant impact on others, and I still believe this. I am not trying to be difficult or nosey but simply trying to make the point that not telling other children or parents anything can make it harder for them to understand and empathise.